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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
10-16-2010, 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post

EDIT -- and did you actually complain about the Nebula? Maybe I'm just seeing particularly bad players in them.
didnt sound like a complaint, more like a compliment that its a fine balanced ship and can do anything anyone puts their mind too,

for example, i use mine the same way i used my recon, and long range refit. just now it has added healing and more hull so im less of a liability then before. its awsome
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
10-16-2010, 02:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waffadeuce View Post
@Azurian - c'mon m8, now you are basically calling for a nerf to TEAM WORK? Really.....?

After every major patch we have had one of these threads, usually entitled "Season x.x - The Death of PVP". Give it a few days...... people will adjust. Those that spent any time on Tribble already have.

Waff
No, im not saying "nerf teamwork". But could it be that all these support buffs be in a sense "too much" teamwork? Is this really Star Trek anymore? Did we ever see them do all these things in the middle of the Dominion war? Voyager?

In Star Trek and even real combat with Jets and Tanks, if a person was in trouble, you would focus your attention on what's attacking that person and neutralize it. But in STO, instead of blowing up the attacking ship, you toss heals and keep it in action.

Really, STO is feeling less and less like Star Trek.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post
The LT engineering slot freed up by the RSP nerf is still primarily a "self-support" slot. It will basically get used for EPtS 2 or Aux to Damp 1, so it's got nothing to do with people healing each other more. ET 2 and Aux to SIF 1 really aren't scary. (EDIT -- and also ES 1. Shows how game changing that power is.)

If you're seeing more teamwork then it's just because you can't count on people to stay alive indefinitely on their own anymore. People don't have extra support powers they didn't have last week, they just might be using them better.
Remember simlar buffs can't be stacked, but stacking SIF 1 with SIF 2 or 3 can be significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post
EDIT -- and did you actually complain about the Nebula? Maybe I'm just seeing particularly bad players in them.
No, complaints. Just pointed out that it was better success in PvP than people predicted. Like how it was going to be target #1 and such.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
10-16-2010, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post

In Star Trek and even real combat with Jets and Tanks, if a person was in trouble, you would focus your attention on what's attacking that person and neutralize it. But in STO, instead of blowing up the attacking ship, you toss heals and keep it in action.
Focus fire is pretty strictly avoided in the real world. There are no "hit points" so there is little benefit in hitting the same target with multiple weapons. The only exception would be using a light weapon to suppress a target or fix it's range while you use a heavy weapon to kill it.

In the real world teamwork is about having everyone hit different targets, so you kill as many enemies as possible as quickly as possible (and keep them from doing it to you).

In the game, we have "hit points", so focussing fire makes sense. To avoid victory always going to whichever side shoots first (since they'll get a kill first and have more ships "focussing" after that), we have tons of defenses.
Quote:
Remember simlar buffs can't be stacked, but stacking SIF 1 with SIF 2 or 3 can be significant.
You can't stack multiple copies of Aux to SIF because of it's cooldown.
Quote:
No, complaints. Just pointed out that it was better success in PvP than people predicted. Like how it was going to be target #1 and such.
Honestly I haven't really noticed the Nebulas actually doing anything. I've yet to see one actually playing a healing/support role. So far they've been easier to handle the Intrepid retrofits. I'm not sure how much of it is the ships and how much is the players -- they all seem to be in spectator mode.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
10-16-2010, 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post
Focus fire is pretty strictly avoided in the real world. There are no "hit points" so there is little benefit in hitting the same target with multiple weapons. The only exception would be using a light weapon to suppress a target or fix it's range while you use a heavy weapon to kill it.

In the real world teamwork is about having everyone hit different targets, so you kill as many enemies as possible as quickly as possible (and keep them from doing it to you).
Not true. It's standard practice for fighters to target the same target and fire missiles for redundancy. It's just modern fighters have multi-targeting ability they can overlap targets. Army units target the same target to ensure a target's destruction, especially if it's a tank.

Even soldiers on the ground focus fire for effect. Because a single bullet can kill, doesn't mean that person is dead.

[quote=inktomi19d;3097764]In the game, we have "hit points", so focussing fire makes sense. To avoid victory always going to whichever side shoots first (since they'll get a kill first and have more ships "focussing" after that), we have tons of defenses./QUOTE]

Yes, focusing fire does make plenty of sense. But since they added Aux heals, you counter with Healing.

But it's been proven time after time even before this recent RSP nerf that even the focus fire on an Escort by 5 Escorts, their damage can easily be out healed. That's why Cruisers that support one another are the strongest.


[quote=inktomi19d;3097764]You can't stack multiple copies of Aux to SIF because of it's cooldown./QUOTE]

For a single person that's true. But if you are in a group, one can toss SIF 1, another SIF 2, and another SIF 3. Just like Hazzard Emitters or TSS.

Frankly, these recent buffs is not fixing the problem, which is the crappy shield system. Throwing full power to Shields is still worse than having it at 25% and tossing EPtS1. This is why people were dependant on RSP in the first place, but Cryptic is sidetracking in fixing with more buffs then to counter that, more DPS for Escorts to compensate.

As someone posted on Tribble, its essentially a "Death Spiral".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
10-17-2010, 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zomulus
I will return to save PVP
i was thinking the same thing. did someone order a tricobalt?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
10-17-2010, 11:58 AM
Well, i dont mind losing RSP, But i just played a LtC PvP match, 5v5, an Escort was unstoppable because he implimented EPtS I.

Is this Supposed to happen? I was using a BoP on my Klink...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
10-17-2010, 12:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
Not true. It's standard practice for fighters to target the same target and fire missiles for redundancy. It's just modern fighters have multi-targeting ability they can overlap targets. Army units target the same target to ensure a target's destruction, especially if it's a tank.
Absolutely not. I mentioned the times when soldiers are trained to "focus fire" -- it's either to fix a target or suppress it. The doctrine with the old disposable antitank rockets was to fire two at once, but that was to compensate for the fact that they couldn't be counted on to hit a vulnerable area, even when aimed perfectly. Those weapons aren't used against armor anymore, and nothing which is used against armor is used in salvos.

If 4 tanks fight another 4 tanks, and one side targets all 4 enemies while the other focusses on one first, the side which focussed fire will lose. Even if each shot only has about a 25% chance to penetrate, that doesn't mean that firing 4 at the same target will give you a 100% chance, and there is a small chance that if you shoot at all 4 targets you will penetrate all of them.

The reason everyone has assigned sectors of fire is to avoid doubling up on targets.
Quote:
Even soldiers on the ground focus fire for effect. Because a single bullet can kill, doesn't mean that person is dead.
Not on purpose they don't. One bullet might not kill, but it will make you take a break for a while.

Shooting at the same target as your buddy is a good way to let someone sneak up on you. The major objective of team, section, and platoon level weapons training is to get everyone to be able simultaneously engage multiple targets. Soldiers do get tunnel-vision on the first enemy they see, but training attempts to break that.

The reason for having several guns on the same target is for suppressive fire, but there's nothing like that in the game. You aren't wearing down the target in any way, you're just making him afraid to poke his head up.

Quote:
Yes, focusing fire does make plenty of sense. But since they added Aux heals, you counter with Healing.

But it's been proven time after time even before this recent RSP nerf that even the focus fire on an Escort by 5 Escorts, their damage can easily be out healed. That's why Cruisers that support one another are the strongest.
There needs to be a counter to focus fire, since it's an unrealistic and unfun mechanic.

The alternative would be that whichever team shoots first wins, which would be pointless.


Quote:
For a single person that's true. But if you are in a group, one can toss SIF 1, another SIF 2, and another SIF 3. Just like Hazzard Emitters or TSS.
If you were on a team which is that organized, you could have had one player take RSP at LT and SIF at LC, and another take SIF at LT and RSP at LC to get the same effect. Usually the second option would be weaker, but if you were on a team which was somehow counting on stacking multiple versions of Aux to SIF it would make sense.

I guarantee that you aren't seeing an increase in healing because of people taking Aux to SIF in place of RSP. The LT and Ensign engineering slots are most powerful when used for self-buffs, so when people lose one self-buff, another will replace it.

you might be seeing more healing because damage is more predictable now. Hardened shields are great protection, but they degrade slowly and steadily, so it's easy to see when a team-mate is in trouble rather than going from full to boom in 3 seconds.

Quote:
Frankly, these recent buffs is not fixing the problem, which is the crappy shield system. Throwing full power to Shields is still worse than having it at 25% and tossing EPtS1. This is why people were dependant on RSP in the first place, but Cryptic is sidetracking in fixing with more buffs then to counter that, more DPS for Escorts to compensate.

As someone posted on Tribble, its essentially a "Death Spiral".
Part of what makes EPtS work so well is that it boosts shield power too. Except for EPtS 3 you generally get more protection out of the shield power than the bonus resistance.

How many times in cannon did a ship enter combat and not harden it's shields in some way? There is almost always dialogue about putting power to shields or rotating frequencies.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
10-17-2010, 01:27 PM
Quote:
There needs to be a counter to focus fire, since it's an unrealistic and unfun mechanic
Its certainly unfun but you cant really call it unrealistic because we dont have space ships. The closest you could get is pre-missile naval warfare and in that they did indeed focus on specific targets.

The problem here is combat is over too fast. In a few seconds. Thats no good, people want to fight, not waste time respawning. Now the longer they spend on focus fire, the more vunerable they become themselves. Scale back buffs and debuffs, and put them on longer cool downs. Make shields and hulls last longer and get rid of 'healing' the hull, either from your own actions or the actions of a team mate. Make combat last longer, but dont make people too hard to kill.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
10-17-2010, 02:02 PM
Speaking from experience as someone who quite often PUGS it, frankly PUGS get exactly what they deserve.

Anybody who:

1) Routinely does not team up
2) Has teaming turned off
3) Either ignores, or doesn't even open chat
4) When they do have chat open, make no calls on targets
5) Ignore any calls you make
6) Almost never heals their team mates

frankly deserves to be at a disadvantage. I have, thankfully, encountered PUGS who do in fact do the above, and more often than not, end up annihilating other pugs, we even win against some pre-mades at times.
It MAY work for klinks who have an element of surprise, and greater experience, but it most certainly does not for Feds.

Team play should be encouraged, not devalued.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
10-17-2010, 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobTheYak
There wasn't enough support when people were chaining RSP for survival. I think gameplay has changed for the better because people actually heal each other.
Unfortunately - I will disagree with you. Certainly they *should* heal each other, but I doubt that will be the case very often.
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