Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
10-21-2010, 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
I'd love to see the K'vort, same model as the small BoP we have right now, but with wings fixed in horizontal position and different textures that show it's a different ship, escape pods a few rows of small windows and you've got a new ship.
But why? I really don't approve of retroactively endorsing obvious creator lazyness (recycling used footage) and budget limitations (not fixing the stuck wings on the BoP studio model) in TNG instead of simply retconning the K'vort into another configuration using the same hull and size as the B'rel, as this is what would make the most sense. Especially given that you move away from canon anyways when you make the K'vort look different than the B'rel.
Also, Birds of Prey should simply never be as large as cruisers. After all, what's the difference, then?

I'd rather see that the upcoming "B'rel Refit" would be called "K'vort", with the same hull and size but a stronger hull and weapon configuration. Just my two darseks, of course. :3
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
10-21-2010, 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
But why? I really don't approve of retroactively endorsing obvious creator lazyness (recycling used footage) and budget limitations (not fixing the stuck wings on the BoP studio model) in TNG instead of simply retconning the K'vort into another configuration using the same hull and size as the B'rel, as this is what would make the most sense. Especially given that you move away from canon anyways when you make the K'vort look different than the B'rel.
Also, Birds of Prey should simply never be as large as cruisers. After all, what's the difference, then?

I'd rather see that the upcoming "B'rel Refit" would be called "K'vort", with the same hull and size but a stronger hull and weapon configuration. Just my two darseks, of course. :3
For the most part it's a matter of personal preference.
However in addition we've seen occasions in TOS_R where they've fixed inaccuracies in models that were present in the old incarnation of the special effects, like the metallic dorsal section of the Romulan BoP in "Balance of Terror" or, for better or worse, the addition of impulse engines to the D7 in "Elaan of Troyus".

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...aft-dorsal.jpg

I have to admit the next part is personal opnion:
According to Star Trek 6 the Klingon military budget had to be reduced after the Praxis Incident to allow the Klingon people to survive, which was only possible because of the peace with the Federation.
I always saw the large BoPs as a consequence of that: a stop-gap measure for a credible counter against bigger and bigger ships the Fed were throwing out, like the Excelsior (I still find it dubious that the K't'inga can take in an Excelsior 1:1), the Ambassador or the Romulan Warbirds, who turned out to be a dangerous enemy in the early 24th century...never appear weak or you invite an invasion.

During WW2, several nations required vehicles that were armed with heavy weaponry that allowed them to defeat other vehicles that were actually above their weight had they been built in a conventional way.
As a result tankhunters had a gun that in many cases exceeded the caliber possible to be mounted into the frame had a turret been included.

The Jagdpanther carried an 88mm gun compared to the 75 of the normal Panther.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdpanther

The Jagdtiger had a 128mm gun (I'm still not sure what they were supposed to be used against subs? destroyers? light cruisers?) compared to the 88mm of the normal Tiger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagdtiger

I see the large BoP as something similar, armed with a pair of disruptor cannons larger than a 400 meter cruiser would usually carry, but given there is little to no secondary armament to power, enough juice would be available to arm them.
While the ship itself would still be somewhat light in tonnage given its BoP-style shape so it could get them to bear on the enemy whose similarly large ships would lack in agility.
The wings would also allow a comparatively large field of fire.
So I see the large BoP as a dedicated cruiserkiller, probably several decades older and also cheaper than the Vor'cha and designed to take out ships its own size and, being cheaper, in pairs of groups ships of larger size, like the Ent-D in "Yesterday's Enterprise" or the Warbirds in "The Defector".
This would also explain the lack of their use in the Dominion War at least for the most part.
If we believe "Penumbra they still took part in it even if they were unseen like the Ambassador class, that also only appeared on deployment and casualty lists.
They'd be swarmed by the smaller Jem'hadar fighters and probably helpless since I figure they'd have allround disruptors, but only a few compared to the Vor'cha.
However they'd probably still be useful against the J'H Battleships that they could outmaneuver.

So this is my personal idea what a large BoP is and what purpose it would serve:
It was cheaper to build this one instead of a larger more modern K't'inga, like the Vor'cha is today and it still worked as a tankhunter in space...probably also spectacular in orbital bombardments if you ask me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
10-21-2010, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
During WW2, several nations required vehicles that were armed with heavy weaponry that allowed them to defeat other vehicles that were actually above their weight had they been built in a conventional way. As a result tankhunters had a gun that in many cases exceeded the caliber possible to be mounted into the frame had a turret been included.
I see where you're coming from, but it makes no sense to use the same shape, just bigger. You don't save any resources by doing this.

I mean, to continue the WW2 comparison, it'd be like building an 8 meter motorcycle only to slap a tank cannon on it.

But yeah, I know that the whole K'vort-size-issue is hugely impacted by personal opinion. I've changed mine on this subject a couple times, too.
Lt. Commander
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# 14
10-21-2010, 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I see where you're coming from, but it makes no sense to use the same shape, just bigger. You don't save any resources by doing this.

I mean, to continue the WW2 comparison, it'd be like building an 8 meter motorcycle only to slap a tank cannon on it.

But yeah, I know that the whole K'vort-size-issue is hugely impacted by personal opinion. I've changed mine on this subject a couple times, too.
Well, even though it is not the exact same thing considering the scales involved but take a look at those two pictures and maybe you'll see a certain similarity in these two verhicles:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...r.000a5s6s.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...9_cropped_.jpg


The first one weights 25 tons, the second 57.
The Panzer VI Tiger was exactly what you said: it was a scaled up version of the Panzer IV so they could put in a bigger gun and more armor.

Time would have been saved in case of a bigger BoP since it had already been established that the shape performed well at Warp (see my rant in the D5 about that) so with probably some minor changes like thicker wings (I'd love a properly rendered model to have slightly thicker ones) to compensate for the scaling issue (the mass increases by the 3rd power, the supporting strengh of the material only by the 2nd) and it would quite possibly work.
As for the wings: I don't see the large BoP as a ship that would perform in the atmosphere even remotely like the small model and I'd omit the machinery that moves the wings and the landing gear therefore saving even more space but the wings themselves have a lot of surface that would allow them to radiate the excess heat caused by operating the large guns and the probably equally massive power grid.

But in the end it ultimately comes down to the question whether someone wants this thing in or not and whether it will be a slightly larger version like the Pagh in TNG (around 250m) or even larger like in "Yesterday's Enterprise", "The Defector", "Reunion", "Redemption" etc. (around 350-40m) or the version established in the DS9 TM which would be bigger than the Galaxy. But then several ships are given at the wrong size in that book, I find the K't'inga at 349 meters quite impressive too.
So I hope the ship comes one day, but I won't be hurt if it does not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
10-21-2010, 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
The Panzer VI Tiger was exactly what you said: it was a scaled up version of the Panzer IV so they could put in a bigger gun and more armor.
Yeah, but the VI was only ~20 cm higher.

I can understand slight differences in size, which is why I went with the SFC idea of the K'vort being 120% the size of a B'rel for a long time. That was okay to stomach, as changes to the hull did not seem necessary at this point. But if you scale it up to Galaxy-size I just don't buy the similar appearance.

Also, if they just needed a weapons platform, they could've well mounted the big guns on a K'tinga cruiser. They were still using those in DS9, after all. Makes a lot more sense than refitting the shipyards to churn out an oversized version of the B'rel, since such a reconfiguration takes its toll in resources, too.

If you want to save resources, you continue to use and improve the same hulls with different interiors.

That being said, I wonder how big the Refit-B'rel will end up, considering all the ships seem to grow based on their tier. I'm keeping my fingers crossed, but I fear it'll look at least as ridiculous as seeing a small Galaxy next to a large one. >_>
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 16
10-21-2010, 05:38 PM
I find it so amusing how far off topic threads can go.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
10-21-2010, 05:55 PM
Phht, that's normal in a forum. Or in any kind of discussion. It's only hum... err, klingon!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
10-22-2010, 12:55 AM
Yeah, we are missing the main thing here. We need a retrofit of the classic TOS D7. There is a proper warship. We don't need namby-pamby cloaking devices, we need a big ship with a load of torps, disruptors and big bag of beardy warriors onboard.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
10-22-2010, 04:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Restless.Kaiser
Yeah, we are missing the main thing here. We need a retrofit of the classic TOS D7. There is a proper warship. We don't need namby-pamby cloaking devices, we need a big ship with a load of torps, disruptors and big bag of beardy warriors onboard.
I want the K't'inga too, as was indicated in the State of the Game August edition.
However if you want a big ship with a load of torps, I recomment you take the K'vort or Vor'cha over the K't'inga since the K't'inga is only 228 meters long and has a smaller internal volume than the Miranda.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
10-22-2010, 04:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Phht, that's normal in a forum. Or in any kind of discussion. It's only hum... err, klingon!
And it's great fun when you have the right people to discuss with.
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