Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
10-27-2010, 10:32 AM
I think the balance is perfect right now.

Your talking from a ship v ship point of view which honestly is a lot of, well its a lot of something very smelly lets just say.

This is a multiplayer game must I spell it out. Cryptic have perfected the balance so that we need to not only team but we need varied classes within the team.

I would like the chance too say this, if your an escort player and your dying a lot your either not getting your shield skills right or your team is failing too heal you. Maybe because your failing to team or your being a lone ranger in PvP and a sitting duck.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
10-27-2010, 11:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zypher2011
I think the balance is perfect right now.

Your talking from a ship v ship point of view which honestly is a lot of, well its a lot of something very smelly lets just say.

This is a multiplayer game must I spell it out. Cryptic have perfected the balance so that we need to not only team but we need varied classes within the team.

I would like the chance too say this, if your an escort player and your dying a lot your either not getting your shield skills right or your team is failing too heal you. Maybe because your failing to team or your being a lone ranger in PvP and a sitting duck.
No. . .I'm not talking about a ship v ship point of view, I made it very specifically clear that my suggestion was to balance team play. Nowhere did I even talk about escorts dying. My post concerns ship roles and the abilities they have to fulfill those roles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashter
4. Promote grouping. Learning how to play as a group is one of the key idea's in an MMO (in my opinion of course). While I realize a lot of people prefer to solo, solo'ing is already very easy, particularly on normal. These changes should not reduce ones ability to be a viable solo'r but should at the same time add an incentive to group up for support.
~D
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
10-27-2010, 12:11 PM
If Star Trek really operated within the confines of the Holy Trinity...

Picard: Ensign, lay in a course for sector 001, let's take out that Borg cube!
Ensign: Aye sir!
---Enterprise E arrives in 001, half the fleet is dead---
Picard: This is Captain Picard, I'm taking command of the fleet!
Ship1: About damn time, we finally found a cruiser tank!
Picard: Whaaa?
Ship2: Oh crap, he's in an assault cruiser, everyone knows starcruisers make the best tanks!
Picard: ... We can tank just fine thank you!
Ship3: Keep looking for that starcruiser, there's gotta be one online!
Worf: F you all, I'll tank in the Defiant!
All Ships: lolz look at the dumb escort
---Defiant blows up---
All Ships: What a noob
Picard: Ok, Riker, begin tanking maneuvers! Taunt that Cube!
Riker: Yo Queen's so fat, she needed 2 Cubes to get here!
Picard: Number 1... get better taunt lines...
Geordi: Sir, we don't have a healer!
Picard: You're kidding! Someone toss a heal on us!
Geordi: Warp core breach imminent!
Picard: Next raid, let's get a healer sci vessel or two mmk?!
---Enterprise blows up---
All Ships: F it, raid's off, we're gonna go play WoW
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
10-27-2010, 12:55 PM
And what, good sir, would you say to someone who doesn't PvP, for whom these changes would spell doom in PvE?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
10-27-2010, 01:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
And what, good sir, would you say to someone who doesn't PvP, for whom these changes would spell doom in PvE?
That you should stop watching so much Lord of the Rings? I don't consider myself a PvP'r either.

~D
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
10-27-2010, 02:15 PM
I can't say that I've ever seen the "holy trinity" work in a PvP MMO.

The biggest problem is that you can't tank in PvP, so that whole role is gone. Some games like WAR attempt to add a PvP "taunt" by letting tanks absorb damage for a friendly target or debuff an enemy until they strike the tank a certain number of times, but in practice the tank is still mostly a DPSer.

STO has ships which are designed to work in different ways, but cover the same roles. I think there are some flaws with the implementation, but not the concept.

In practice escorts can tank decently, but they need to use all of their engineering and science slots to do it. I think that giving all ships slightly better defense based on speed could help this without making escorts and BoPs overpowered. Escorts moving at top speed can't sustain their damage nearly as well as those who slow to a crawl and just pivot to keep their guns on target, so speed both increases defense and decreases damage. The only problem is that currently the defense gained from speed is pretty trivial, definitely not enough that an escort could skip a tanking power like EPtS while they are running at top speed. I'd see extra defense as a way of giving escorts more flexibility in their science and engineering slots.

Along the same lines, I think science ships could use an extra weapon slot. While raw DPS isn't supposed to be their thing, 3/3 isn't enough for when they need to kill something.

Tanking is currently overvalued in STO, but I think that's partly because healing got over-nerfed. There are two types of healing in STO: hull and shields. When the game was released the main hull heal was ET (though HE was a decent back up) and the main shield heal was ES (though ST was a decent back up). This lead to healing being a bit too simple, and to engineering being much more important for healing than science (therefore making cruisers the only serious healers). All that was changed so that abilities in each healing set (shields and hull) were divided between science and engineering. At the same time ET and ST were nerfed so that they no longer gave resists (so you could no longer use then as your only heal) and ES was nerfed to provide much less healing.

The problem is that while the hull healing set is complete, with ET, HE, and Aux to SIF all being important parts, the shield healing set is incomplete. While ES used to be a very powerful abilitiy, it came with MAJOR limitations, so after the nerf it really isn't worth using. Other abilities which had similar limitations had those limitations removed, but ES is still in the dark ages.

Shield resists are a lot more powerful than hull resists, and science vessels should be naturally better shield healers than cruisers, but 1/3 of the shield healing tree, the part which should give a big resist on a mild cooldown (similar to what Aux to SIF does for the hull) doesn't work, so a shield healer can't compete with a hull healer.

This hurts everybody since it limits the amount of support you can expect from a team. So basically my 3 balance fixes would be:
1. Increase the defensive bonus from speed.
2. Give science ships an extra forward weapon.
3. Fix the shield healing set, especially ES. Giving it a 10km range and making it so it can no longer be interrupted would be fine.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
10-27-2010, 03:21 PM
@SapphicZoid I cannot comment on your play experience. I'm not usually the one to resort to L2P statements. However I have seen some rather invulnerable Cruisers more than once. And my survivability in my escort is actually higher than quite a few science ships. My original point is that no one player should be completely self sufficient. They should be able to handle normal level PvE mobs solo yes, but beyond that it really should be imperative to group up for support.

~D[/quote]

Hello,

Is L2P "Learn to play" if so, I have no doubt at all you would be right if you did make such a comment directly. And I'm not even sure my point overall is valid for the discussion, were you speaking only of Fed Vs Fed?

I can however only remark on my experiences. And they are this. In approximately a dozen or so battles while in a team with various classes of Fed ships, anytime such a team all I assume of varying skill level, have faced a Klingon team that consisted of a Carrier, the game was a total shutout. What I am saying is the Fed side scored 0 points/kills down the entire line of players.

This may only be a fluke and I accept that is possible. But it seemed a impossible situation during play.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
10-27-2010, 04:11 PM
best us not waste time here until the klingon refir come out early next months. for all we know, it will like the carriers (fotm atm) and the whole balance thing will need a total rethink.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
10-27-2010, 05:30 PM
To chip in my Ha-penny worth here I think there is a chronic misappropriation of the situaiton as it is 'on thr ground' as it were.

Everyone seems to be under the impression that science ships should be healers. Sure life sciences are part of science and you get to play out that little fantasy land in the ground based missions. If you want your Science officer to be a surgeon then go ahead.

Now the most famous science officer of them all was in fact, not a doctor, but a man of science. What he did whenever the opportunity arose was to deivse a clever science way of defeating the enemy. He was called spock. There was this other fella who used to fiddle with the shields and things and he was an engineer. Spock dabbled in this because he was clever but it was mainly the engineer who dealt with that.

Now playing the game as it is, where almost every heal is a self or other heal and there is no penaltry for being smacked in the mouth'whilst casting a spell' like in other games - clearly being a healer makes you the best tank. Oh that combined with the fact that heal give supplementary resist mods.

Why are people so cut up about the fact that science ships dont heal as well as cruisers? This is a starship not a human body and at the end of the day it is the guy with a techno-spanner who fixes a hull breach, not the dude in the lab.

As things stand in the current version of the game it is not tripartite in the traditional sense of tank rouge and healer because healing is the best way to tank... Like it or not science is not a healer class currenty, and frankly nor should it be. Given the 'shoot me' emblem stamped on escorts and the 'I must have all my slots for heals' that cruisers so enjoy this frankly leaves Science ships with the role of doing damage in reality though, it is a hybrid between the two and I for oneam perfectly happy with it there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
10-27-2010, 05:37 PM
I like how Mumstrum summed up the existing functionality of the ships in STO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I don't mind the holy trinity. I think it is functional, too.
If there is a problem, it's most like not the ship roles themselves, but the specific implementation.
For Cruisers: They cover multiple roles very well (DPS and Healing and even a slice of Wizardry with Eject Warp Plasma and Boarding Party) and are too strong overall.
For Science Vessels: The wizard/control archetype was either way to strong and frustrating (hello 20+ seconds stuns with VM) or useless (hello random subsystem shutdowns no one can count on)
For Escorts: Not survivable enough alone, too much damage potential.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:08 PM.