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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
12-09-2010, 07:03 AM
From the released material covering the Enterprise E in the last run of the Movie DVD boxed sets, the Sovereign class was supposed to be a departure from the "City in Space" concept of the Galaxy class and a return to the no frills "One ship Taskforce" concept of the original Constitution ships.

It's not a warship in the way that the Neg'var is, although its weaponry and shields were designed with the Borg in mind. The Sovereign's primary purpose is to independently project a stabilising Starfleet presence into trouble spot rather than engage in fleet actions. Like all Starfleet ship classes of its size, the design includes sufficient facilities to perform Starfleets primary role of exploration.

Based on the information available, even with the advent of the Sovereign, the command and control role of a Battleship in the 2370's is probably still best suited to a Galaxy class ship (or c25th Star Cruiser). Unlike the Klingons and Dominion, Starfleet appear to have a preference for avoiding the production of "monster ships". The more recent "combat designs" such as the Akira and Saber were very much along the lines of compact and agile power houses rather than colossal warships.

As for a retrofit or refit, the in-game Sovereign class ships are either up to date versions that do not require a retrofit, or are older vessels that have already undergone retrofits to maitain parity with more recent designs (Majestic etc.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
12-09-2010, 07:36 AM
I would buy a Sovereign refit. I like the design better than the Excelsior.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
12-10-2010, 10:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
Actually, no, here is the CANON definition for "Retrofit".
Nope. That's not the canon definition, that's what some fan put online on the wiki. And it's wrong.
The USS Lakota was "refitted" (screenquote in DS9) and still looked the same - that is canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
Also, you are diving into "Personal Canon." The only thing that can be considered canon is if it appears on screen. If you find that term being used for the Sovereign during one of the movies, then it can be considered canon.
So we can all agree that the Sovereign is not a warship. That's a start, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
Also, the Sovereign was designed for the DOMINION WAR.
I find that hard to believe, considering that the Sovereign was built years before the Dominion War. The Federation wasn't even aware of the Dominion when they began work on this class, let alone the need to prepare for a conflict with it.

It would be more likely that the Sovereign's weaponry was scaled to meet a Borg threat, as KnightErrant mentioned - but dedicated for the fight against them? No. That's what the Defiant project was about. The Sovereign is meant for long range operations where she should be capable of standing her ground without immediate support from Starfleet reinforcements. KnightErrant's post is probably spot-on regarding this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
Also, if I agree that the posters are canon, then at what point did we see the USS Enterprise fire on Regula Station during Wrath of Khan?
I'd say that detailed technical specifications are "more valid" than fancy nonsense artwork, but I have already pointed out I don't necessarily see it as canon. Only way more canon than the wishful "battleship" thinking some "Federation warmongers" amidst the fans came up with. I continue to believe in Starfleet's primary purpose and Federation ideals being reflected in ship design.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
12-11-2010, 08:18 AM
This sort of thing would be the easiest possible way for Cryptic to make the base combat stats of the Excelsior-5 available as part of the actual game, heading back in line toward keeping their promises about the C-store, and keeping the Excelsior skin at T5 C-store only which is just fine.

But they won't do it, of course.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
12-16-2010, 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Nope. That's not the canon definition, that's what some fan put online on the wiki. And it's wrong.
The USS Lakota was "refitted" (screenquote in DS9) and still looked the same - that is canon.

So we can all agree that the Sovereign is not a warship. That's a start, I guess.
Agreed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I find that hard to believe, considering that the Sovereign was built years before the Dominion War. The Federation wasn't even aware of the Dominion when they began work on this class, let alone the need to prepare for a conflict with it.
There is no proof of that. We don't know WHEN Starfleet Began working on the Sovereign. All we know that it was ready at the time of the Dominion War, it probably could have been designed, built, and tested between FC with the Dominion and the beginning of the War. That might be the case, but again, I won't believe it unless I see HARD CANON.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
It would be more likely that the Sovereign's weaponry was scaled to meet a Borg threat, as KnightErrant mentioned - but dedicated for the fight against them? No. That's what the Defiant project was about. The Sovereign is meant for long range operations where she should be capable of standing her ground without immediate support from Starfleet reinforcements. KnightErrant's post is probably spot-on regarding this.
Once again, canon. There is no hard canon to support that theory, but there is also none to support mine. The Sovereign-class was probably built not just to Explore, the Sovereign is MUCH more powerful than the Galaxy, which probably would be just as good with a refit, also, it had technology that was previously seen on the DEFIANT, which shows that the Defiant was probably testing some of the systems used on the Sovvie. After the Borg's first attempt to Assimulate Earth, why wouldn't Starfleet try to build no ships that where designed more for combat? The Defiant-class is tough, but I don't think a few of those small little (don't even think about the Work Quote) vessels could defeat a full Bog Cube in the 2370's. They would give a hell of a fight, but they wouldn't be able to beat it. Now, along with the Sovereign there where several other ships that appeared. The Steamrunner, Akira, Norway, and Sovereign. All where much more combat oriented than their predecessors. As I have said, the Sovereign was not built just for combat, it is a big ship which would mean that Starfleet Designers could have added other systems that would let it do other things, but it is a lot more, and I mean a LOT more combat oriented than its predecessor, the Galaxy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I'd say that detailed technical specifications are "more valid" than fancy nonsense artwork, but I have already pointed out I don't necessarily see it as canon. Only way more canon than the wishful "battleship" thinking some "Federation warmongers" amidst the fans came up with. I continue to believe in Starfleet's primary purpose and Federation ideals being reflected in ship design.

Yeah, tell that to all the people who have been Assimilated with ships that where built for Starfleet's primary focus, aka, WOLF 359. Now, I don't believe that the Federation went fully to war, again, their primary focus was exploration, but you have to count in what happened during those years. Everything in Starfleet changed, ships where much more tactical, they used RIFLES much more often, and even the Uniforms looked more militaristic. I'm not saying that it is a "Warship", but it is definitely a lot more Tactical than how it is represented in the game. Now, you also have to account for 30 years (which it has probably been upgraded) and all of that, but still, it should be the equivalent to the Battlecruiser, not exact, I don't want to see Sovvie's going around with Disruptors, but having something to make it more offensive would be great, not just for canon, but for balance too.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
12-20-2010, 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
There is no proof of that. We don't know WHEN Starfleet Began working on the Sovereign. All we know that it was ready at the time of the Dominion War, it probably could have been designed, built, and tested between FC with the Dominion and the beginning of the War. That might be the case, but again, I won't believe it unless I see HARD CANON.
But we know that the Federation became aware of the Dominion Thread in 2370.
The first time we saw the Souverign was 2373. Geordi mentioned that the Ship was on duty for 1 year already, that means AT LAST 2 years between first Contact with the Dominion in "the Jem Hadar" and the launch of the Enterprise E, that is Canon.
So, it is NOT mentioned in Canon that the Ent E was NOT designed to fight the Dominion, but simple logic dictates that. Not to mention that there was probably a "USS Souveign" prototype before the Enterprise E, if the Souverign was build with the Dominion in mind that would mean 2 years to plan, develop, build and test a 700 meter Cruiser. That doesnt look readonable to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
Once again, canon. There is no hard canon to support that theory, but there is also none to support mine. The Sovereign-class was probably built not just to Explore, the Sovereign is MUCH more powerful than the Galaxy, which probably would be just as good with a refit, also, it had technology that was previously seen on the DEFIANT, which shows that the Defiant was probably testing some of the systems used on the Sovvie. After the Borg's first attempt to Assimulate Earth, why wouldn't Starfleet try to build no ships that where designed more for combat? The Defiant-class is tough, but I don't think a few of those small little (don't even think about the Work Quote) vessels could defeat a full Bog Cube in the 2370's. They would give a hell of a fight, but they wouldn't be able to beat it. Now, along with the Sovereign there where several other ships that appeared. The Steamrunner, Akira, Norway, and Sovereign. All where much more combat oriented than their predecessors. As I have said, the Sovereign was not built just for combat, it is a big ship which would mean that Starfleet Designers could have added other systems that would let it do other things, but it is a lot more, and I mean a LOT more combat oriented than its predecessor, the Galaxy.
There is no canon that supports your theorie. There is no proove that the Souverigns weopons were better towards the Galaxy then the Galaxys were towards the Ambassadors.
Beside the Quantum torpedos there is not even a proove that the Souverign WAS more heavy armed then the Galaxy at all and no proove that Quantums cant be equiped in Galaxy class vessels.
They were a new technologie, of course they were used in newer ships, that doesnt even indicate that they were build with "war in mind" in any way.
Also, the Ent E uses Technology that was new on the Intrepit/Voyager, too. (the MHN, I'm sure the bio neural gel packs were mentioned somewhere) Nobody would say it was a "pure science ship" because of that. They are just using up-to-date technologie in all areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
Yeah, tell that to all the people who have been Assimilated with ships that where built for Starfleet's primary focus, aka, WOLF 359.
Most people usually do not make conversation with fictional characters, assimilatet, dead or alive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
Now, I don't believe that the Federation went fully to war, again, their primary focus was exploration, but you have to count in what happened during those years. Everything in Starfleet changed, ships where much more tactical, they used RIFLES much more often, and even the Uniforms looked more militaristic. I'm not saying that it is a "Warship", but it is definitely a lot more Tactical than how it is represented in the game. Now, you also have to account for 30 years (which it has probably been upgraded) and all of that, but still, it should be the equivalent to the Battlecruiser, not exact, I don't want to see Sovvie's going around with Disruptors, but having something to make it more offensive would be great, not just for canon, but for balance too.

Beside the fact that I disagree and do not consider any of what you mention a "proof" for a more military Federation ,it is indeed an indicator, but the result is just interpretation, that doesnt make it Canon. With the Ensign tac console it is representet "tactical" in the game. In the Series the "Cruiser"-line, wich the Souverign is part of, just like the Galaxy, Ambassador, Excelsior and Constitution always were (or lets say "seemed to be") alround ships. They should be as good tactical ships as a defaint, as good science ships as the Intrepit ect ect. But that woulndt work with the game balance.
In my Opinion the Souverign wasnt build as a warship, but, as "alrounder" it of course HAD strong weapons, and it should be able to take on any other Federation ship (may be beside the Prometheus) easyly in battle. But you cant build a "Super-class" (although many people already consider the cruisers as "super ships", wich is not unreansonable, because if pilot it right and are an Engenier it is very hard to get it down).

So my opinion, the Souverign is all right the way it is. Its a little boring since it doesnt have such a "funny" refit special ability, buts its ok.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
12-20-2010, 10:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirstAngelus View Post
So my opinion, the Souverign is all right the way it is. Its a little boring since it doesnt have such a "funny" refit special ability, buts its ok.
That said, the Sovereign should be able to outperform an Excelsior simply due to it being newer (and I say this by actually having an Excelsior). I never understood why STO seems unwilling to just judge starship capabilities based on what we know about them - and this includes their age.

A "tier 5.5" Sovereign Refit (not battleship) would be cool indeed. The Sovvie was refitted between the movies as well, so ... hey, it's even canon.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
12-21-2010, 02:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
That said, the Sovereign should be able to outperform an Excelsior simply due to it being newer (and I say this by actually having an Excelsior). I never understood why STO seems unwilling to just judge starship capabilities based on what we know about them - and this includes their age.

A "tier 5.5" Sovereign Refit (not battleship) would be cool indeed. The Sovvie was refitted between the movies as well, so ... hey, it's even canon.
The Excelsior en par with the Souverign seems very odd indeet, especially considering her Age. But it is a really nice ship and for some a lot of fun to fly.
Comparing the "canon" strenth of ships to STOs strenth of ships always doesnt work for me; the Defaint is a tough ship, of course, but I simply cant see her en par with the Souverign. The Intrepit? the Luna?
But in somehow they HAVE to match, otherwise there wouldnt be any game balance.

To the Souvereign Refit: 40 years after Nemesis I'd say the ones we fly ARE Refits. Just like ANY "known" ship we fly. (Or they are simply build on a "Refit"-tech level in the first place).

Fact is: A Souvereign Refit CANT be Stronger then T5. The so called "t 5.5" are not "better" then the t5, they always give something up for their improvements. So that Souvereign Refit would have to be in somehow weaker then the usual one. Or they REALLY go for t6, wich i would REALLY REALLY hate since we NOW FINALLY a starting to get some variation on t5.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
12-21-2010, 03:26 AM
Fully agree with FirstAngelus.

IMO the Souvereign would be atr least the 3rd Refit of the class to prolong it's service live.

ST-O made some very odd decisions concerning continuity, Excelsior on T5 and NX class concerns me most. The game is already becoming more of a mod then a serious game, with ships from all eras pushed into it .

I would hate the implementation of the Tier 6 as long I wouldn't get a compensation for my purchases on C-Store, which will be devaluated.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70
12-21-2010, 05:32 PM
After adding Aegis stuff on my Excelsior and that Borg console, I went to test them out at the Starbase 24 battle. And you know what happened? I fought alongside a Sovereign Class and we both ended up assisting each other when Klingons punched through our shield onto our hulls. Good thing for engineering abilities... she did keep more of her hull strength than me but I threw out a bigger punch. I did get 2nd place in the battle and she got 3rd.

The moral of the story: figure your playing style and adjust all your BO skills, your own skills, and ship equipment layout. I was able to fly the Sovereign without issue because of it. I just switched out to the Excelsior because I don't mind blowing up as much as long as I knew the trade off was more damage ability. But don't think the Sovy can't dish it out... she can if properly outfitted and trained for.
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