Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
10-26-2010, 12:01 PM
Much as I take your point onboard, slaughtering nazis is not racially motivated. That is a political connection not a racial one. The comparisson is not entirely accurate. It is also fair to point out that the war with the Nazis did no result in the enslaement of them by the West, nor was it motivated by conquest or notions of racial superiority (from the West).

Racial supremacists are deluded fools and enslavement in any form is utterly repugnant a concept. Any game that promoted this idea without sufficient justification (such as an historical game in which it was a factual activity) I woud walk away from in disgust.

The fact that other forms of vulgaerity is acceptable in computer games, such as the GTA types, is not in and of itself justification to bring slavery into this one. This is a comparable argument to 'Beer is legal and its awful - why don't we let kids use crack at 18'.
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# 12
10-26-2010, 12:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Restless.Kaiser
Much as I take your point onboard, slaughtering nazis is not racially motivated. That is a political connection not a racial one. The comparisson is not entirely accurate.
I'm sorry if this was misleading, however it is appearently acceptable in a fictional scenario to mindlessly slaughter them because they are defined as "evil".
Just as aliens can be defined as evil.
As for the racial stuff, I'd like to point out that I'm not talking about the actual World War II, but about all that fictional garbage that followed.
And as a German I'd also like (or rather dislike) to point out that it has indeed become a strange racial thing in a sense that may surprise you:
I have been called a Nazi because I am German and therefore genetically related to Hitler himself.
No kidding I am supposed to be Nazi as it is a racial definition of being German.

An interesting matter regarding Star Trek itself can be seen in the article about "Storm Front" on StarTrek.com, which uses the terms "German" and "Nazi" entirely interchangeably.
So appearently in some people's mind there is no difference between those terms anymore.
But I think that should be enough about Nazis for now, it was just an example of how entire people can be made "evil".

Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Restless.Kaiser
It is also fair to point out that the war with the Nazis did no result in the enslaement of them by the West, nor was it motivated by conquest or notions of racial superiority (from the West).
No argument there, I'm well aware who started what and when and as most Germans I'm glad it turned out the way it did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Restless.Kaiser
Racial supremacists are deluded fools and enslavement in any form is utterly repugnant a concept. Any game that promoted this idea without sufficient justification (such as an historical game in which it was a factual activity) I woud walk away from in disgust.
No argument there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Restless.Kaiser
The fact that other forms of vulgaerity is acceptable in computer games, such as the GTA types, is not in and of itself justification to bring slavery into this one. This is a comparable argument to 'Beer is legal and its awful - why don't we let kids use crack at 18'.
First off: I hate GTA
Second: I don't thnk the Klingons enslave people in the same sense as African people were enslaved when they were brought to North America, it has never been shown that way.
However politcal control would go over to the Klingons as would many resources that would otherwise go tothe populace.
When I wrote about the "personal" part I was more thinking about the fact that when you lead an assault on a planet you'd end up killing the civilian population in the crossifre and Klingons are not know to be picky about their targets.
Such things were shown in games like "Command and Conquer" where civilians were "collateral damage"
but in a 3rd person shooter environment...I wouldn't want to play that either.

Hope this clears at least most misunderstandings up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
10-26-2010, 12:42 PM
Sorry if I came across as combative. I jjust can't stand any form of prejudice and sometimes worry we forget just how monstrous some of these things are. It gets me a bit more wound up than I should in a public forum.

As to the Germans/Nazis thing yeah, I know what you mean. I try wherever possible not to mix up these terms. Admittedly, I do make that mistake sometimes and I regret it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 14
10-26-2010, 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Restless.Kaiser
As to the Germans/Nazis thing yeah, I know what you mean. I try wherever possible not to mix up these terms. Admittedly, I do make that mistake sometimes and I regret it.
Ah, but that's where historical accuracy conflicts with political correctness. Not every German in WW2 was a Nazi (as in party member), yet may still have been in the Wehrmacht and participated in war crimes (possibly making him an "indirect Nazi"? at least he supported their policies, did he not?).

It's easy to lay the blame solely on the party and its members, yet people started to forget that you did not need to be part of the political system to be guilty. Ironically, it is quite possible that many non-Nazis (soldiers who participated in war crimes) were "guiltier" than a few real party members (who signed up without ever doing something bad or sharing the racist views).

In my personal opinion, and I say this as a German, it is entirely appropriate to keep the connection WW2-German = Nazi simply as a safeguard to remind at least some people that it can happen again, anywhere, if they don't watch out. There's a Nazi somewhere inside each of us humans - so we need to watch out and keep him at bay.

Wow. This has gotten philosophical.

On-topic: I feel tempted to paste a description on Klingon Conquest and Subjugation from a very good RPG supplement that sadly was never released. Give me a couple hours, maybe I can dig up the PDF again. I do remember one thing: they did make a difference between "conquered people" and "slaves". It is entirely possible that one results in the other, but it is not the norm.

Ah, here it is: jeghpu'wI': Less than citizens, more than slaves, it basically means "conquered people."
as opposed to toy'wI': Animal, one without rights and honor, a slave.

Jeghpu'wl' may not bear arms or fight in the KDF and are subject to their Klingon lord's decrees. Their property may be seized and they can be relocated at a whim, yet they also enjoy a certain degree of protection and are at least allowed to petition for judicial matters (not always successfully, especially not if the offender was a true Klingon), and many jeghpu'wl' can rise to prominent (civilian) positions within the House that controls their lands.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 15
10-26-2010, 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Restless.Kaiser
Sorry if I came across as combative. I jjust can't stand any form of prejudice and sometimes worry we forget just how monstrous some of these things are. It gets me a bit more wound up than I should in a public forum.

As to the Germans/Nazis thing yeah, I know what you mean. I try wherever possible not to mix up these terms. Admittedly, I do make that mistake sometimes and I regret it.
No problem, I threw in the N-word so it's my fault for starting this in the first place.

Prejudice based on religion, race, the colour of your flag (meaning sterotypes based on you homecountry), gender, sexual preference...all its forms, as a euphemism that may be acceptable in this forum, is simply wrong.
As are many things we can do to each other.
Sometimes I really wonder how those of us humans who tend to be prejudiced about many things would really react when they met an extreterrestrial.
Imagine: He/she/it would look different (race) would probably have an entirely different religion (if any), his flag (or cube or whatever) would look totally different, the sexes might be different so that sexual thing may apply.
It could be the next "holy crusade" or the "final solution of the alien problem".

So assuming the Klingons got the option to actually conquer a planet in STO, it would be a very delicate matter to implement.
No racist jokes or indication of prejudice (I'm actually not aware of Klingons being actually racist in Star Trek or in any secondary materials in fact sevral examples show the exact opposite like the 4th IKS Gorkon novel) or death camps and no mindless killing of civilians.
As I recall "The Path to 2409" describes that the Klingons, after the Gorn surrendered, provided medical aid etc.

As for "insurgents" and such things I think it would not be a good idea to implement anything like that on the ground since it would again be difficult to implement.
Particularly when you look at recent events in the world where so-called insurgents place bombs to kill and/or maim enemy soldiers I think such tings as rebellions should not be a "feature".
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# 16
10-26-2010, 01:42 PM
T be specific the better term would be Nazi Germany. I think it is important to distinguish the leadership and direction of that nation and that moment in time as an abberation.

In reference to the crimes of individual soldiers it is probably not a good idea to get into that in too much detail. It is very sensetive and way off topic.

I would say though, there were war crimes committed on both sides. Then men who firebombed Dresden would not get away with it today nor would those involved with Nuking Japan. We established at Neremburg that 'just following orders' is no defence. I am not saying they should be held to account, I am saying the whole rotten buusiness left us all with our hands dirty. I would like to think after that experience we will never have to do it again.
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# 17 what tha
10-26-2010, 01:49 PM
What is evryone talking about? Can everyone just get off the racial stuff and slavery stuff? No one seems to care if the Borg swoop in and assimilate an entire civilization. Assimilate is another word for slavery it just sounds more technical because it the Borg. This is a game. In the game I want the bad guys to feel like the bad guys. Klingons are conqurers and warriors. Thy feed on combat. So why not, in the midst of a war with the federation, the dividians seemingly making a mess, and the romulans constantly pestering them, go out and claim some planets and make the populace work for them. The whole thing is... this is make believe. Klingons don't exist, so they can do whatever they want to, including enlaving people. It would add to the game if your captain could go out to system and systematically take over a populace. Then you can begin to get candidates for your crew. It can only do good for the Kingon side of the game. I don't won't to make anyone mad, but I am the one who started this whole string of posts. So if you get mad at this idea I proposed then just don't play that part if something like that ever gets implemented.
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# 18
10-26-2010, 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislove View Post
What is evryone talking about? Can everyone just get off the racial stuff and slavery stuff? No one seems to care if the Borg swoop in and assimilate an entire civilization. Assimilate is another word for slavery it just sounds more technical because it the Borg.
Because the thread title says you want to enslave civilizations, not conquer them nor do you say you want an "assimilation minigame".
What did you expect?
Everyone says slavery? "sure, lots of fun".
Of course there'd be some reference to human past, you know when we do things like that ourselves.
And we still do today, but of course what the Germans did is so well documented it should come to mind.
They used a lot of forced labor from the occupied populace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislove View Post
This is a game. In the game I want the bad guys to feel like the bad guys.
And since when are the Klingons slave masters?
As for the "evil" label I suggest you watch some more Trek as appearently you have a limited view
on the Klingons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislove View Post
Klingons are conqurers and warriors. Thy feed on combat.

And you don't know the difference between combat and slavery?
Too bad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislove View Post
So why not, in the midst of a war with the federation, the dividians seemingly making a mess, and the romulans constantly pestering them, go out and claim some planets and make the populace work for them. The whole thing is... this is make believe. Klingons don't exist, so they can do whatever they want to, including enlaving people.
So the fact that it's fictonal means it's a free ticket to repeat and depict all the crimes humans are capable of because it "adds to the game".
Watch "Errand of Mercy" where we do see a Klingon occupation army.
It's not nice to live among them but it's not slavery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislove View Post
It would add to the game if your captain could go out to system and systematically take over a populace.
How? By brainwashing them? Or by handing out blankets?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrislove View Post
Then you can begin to get candidates for your crew. It can only do good for the Kingon side of the game. I don't won't to make anyone mad, but I am the one who started this whole string of posts. So if you get mad at this idea I proposed then just don't play that part if something like that ever gets implemented.
When this is the good stuff, I don't want to see the bad stuff.

So you basically want only the posts of those who agree, the rest should leave and not add critical remarks because...you brought up to point to "discuss" which means collect comments from those who agree with you.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 19
10-27-2010, 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBFLordKrueg View Post
Ah, the Glory days of watching the Red stain as it spread across the Known Universe...
How ya doing Aoav?
<S> Lord Krueg!

Been good and you?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
10-27-2010, 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
How? By brainwashing them? Or by handing out blankets?
Actually, this reminds me of the "secret Klingon bases" you stumble upon from time to time in random Fed missions, that are apparently used to influence local factions. After all, "Klingon Diplomacy" often means supporting already present groups that, following thetakeover, owe allegiance to the Empire.

I could see a PvE mission revolving around the construction of one such base, and/or its protection against loyalist forces or even an interfering Starfleet.
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