Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
10-27-2010, 10:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClingingMars View Post
Don't get me wrong, I would love a way to earn CPoints...but it's just not feasible.
Who knows, maybe that one really awesome mission writer and designer will emerge and Cryptic offers them a job

That's about the only way I see anyone getting paid from this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
10-27-2010, 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClingingMars View Post
True...but again, by signing this EULA you are essentially handing over any right you have to the content. Without the tools they provide...it's just an idea in your head.
And they determine what the EULA says. If they say we earn something and we sign it, we have a right to something. I fail to see what relevance mentioning the EULA has, when the EULA includes whatever Cryptic wants it to.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong, I would love a way to earn CPoints...but it's just not feasible.
It's completely feasible.
Heck... let authors choose to put their missions up in the C-Store at some point if they get good enough ratings. 100CP default with the author being able to put a markup on it.

It's not very much unlike CafePress. To make a wide range of content on CafePress you need to pay a monthly subscription fee--or at least had to back when I used it. That subscription allows you to use their tools to make content that becomes available through their system. And just like STO, CafePress makes a profit on two fronts: subscription fee from the creator, purchase fee from the buyer. And CafePress lets you put a markup on all items so you, the creator, can get something for your effort.

There's no way that it's right that Cryptic gets to double-dip here, and the authors get nothing. And if your argument amounts to "because we sign the EULA", then none of us should sign it until we have the capacity to get something for our effort.

I don't know about you, but I don't pay my employer to go into work every day to help my employer make money from others. That's not the way the world works, nor should we accept that as status quo here.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
10-27-2010, 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
Seriously?
I mean... it's bad enough we have to spend $15/month (assuming non-lifetime, anyway) to make content for Cryptic's game... now you want to give them more money to make them better content that will attract more players to make Cryptic more money?

That sounds like some bad pyramid scheme you're supporting there.
In business, costs are passed onto the consumer. Likeness Rights costs money that Cryptic doesn't have. $15/mo was never designed to pay for it. Players want content with the TV Series actors so badly that they are willing to pay extra for them.

Think of the content that the devs could create with an actual Captain Kirk with Shatner's voice. Think of the content players could create with Kirk's image.

What would bring more players into to the game? The actual James T. Kirk or Jimmy T. Kirk, Jr?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
If anything Cryptic should pay us for making missions for their game. Maybe a C-Point reward based on similar equations they use to figure out how much experience a mission is worth, plus the average rating given by players.

Your logic is going the completely wrong way, man....
You're dreaming. Cryptic pay us?? For content based on rating?

Do you know how many Rating Cartels would be formed just so people could exploit C-Points from mediocre content?

Are you serious?? And my logic is wrong? Heh...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
10-27-2010, 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror-Master
In business, costs are passed onto the consumer. Likeness Rights costs money that Cryptic doesn't have. $15/mo was never designed to pay for it. Players want content with the TV Series actors so badly that they are willing to pay extra for them.

Think of the content that the devs could create with an actual Captain Kirk with Shatner's voice. Think of the content players could create with Kirk's image.

What would bring more players into to the game? The actual James T. Kirk or Jimmy T. Kirk, Jr?
My argument isn't about likeness rights. It's about the sheer concept of paying Cryptic TWICE to make content for their game that others pay AGAIN to play. That's Cryptic getting paid THREE times by us.

Quote:
You're dreaming. Cryptic pay us?? For content based on rating?

Do you know how many Rating Cartels would be formed just so people could exploit C-Points from mediocre content?

Are you serious?? And my logic is wrong? Heh...
Then make the C-Point reward not worth the cost and time spent by Cartels. Or don't make it rating-based. Maybe 1 C-Point per play-through of the content, once it it's approved by the reviewers and available to everyone.

100 people play your content? 100 C-Points. That's about $1.25 worth of C-Points but it would take "cartels" a long time to play a mission through 100 times. It wouldn't be worth their effort. They couldn't even get $1.25 for the effort since they'd have to beat Cryptic's C-Point prices.

1cp per playthrough too much? Make it .5cp--still a decent reward, but even less profit motive for the "cartels".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
10-27-2010, 11:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
My argument isn't about likeness rights. It's about the sheer concept of paying Cryptic TWICE to make content for their game that others pay AGAIN to play. That's Cryptic getting paid THREE times by us.
Hate to break it to ya, but Cryptic is already doing what you fear. Players wanted the Excelsior and the Neblua...badly.

Without the C-Store to cover costs, players would have had to wait until Cryptic designed content that required those ships. Since no such content was planned, the C-Store purchases covered the design costs, gave the players what they wanted and made it profitable at the same time.

Players who made the real money transaction benefit by having the ships unlocked for all their characters. And it made the same ships available for in-game currency as well. (All this improves customer satisfaction, which equals more profit, which allows development efforts to flourish, etc).

What I and others have proposed about putting content in the C-Store to pay for Likeness Rights requests is no different that what Cryptic already does for Ship requests.

So, I say again... if Cryptic were to put something in their store to accommodate actor likeness requests I'd definately buy. It would enhance the game immensely. I get nerdgasms just thinking of the episodes Cryptic could design!

And even if you didn't buy the content it would also open the characters to be used by everyone in The Foundry. A win, win for all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
Then make the C-Point reward not worth the cost and time spent by Cartels. Or don't make it rating-based. Maybe 1 C-Point per play-through of the content, once it it's approved by the reviewers and available to everyone.

100 people play your content? 100 C-Points. That's about $1.25 worth of C-Points but it would take "cartels" a long time to play a mission through 100 times. It wouldn't be worth their effort. They couldn't even get $1.25 for the effort since they'd have to beat Cryptic's C-Point prices.

1cp per playthrough too much? Make it .5cp--still a decent reward, but even less profit motive for the "cartels".
I'll admit that having a way to earn C-Points instead of buying C-Points is compelling. I remember earning some by taking a Cryptic Survey which was cool.

I'm sure there are plenty of folks who would agree with you. But I just don't see them putting work and resources into designing a system that pays us instead of them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
10-28-2010, 12:09 AM
Ok so on the Android front we are ok, because we would be using the likeness of a prop head and Android prop body, which CBS owns the rights too, and not the Brent Spiner likeness .
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
10-28-2010, 12:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror-Master
Hate to break it to ya, but Cryptic is already doing what you fear. Players wanted the Excelsior and the Neblua...badly.

Without the C-Store to cover costs, players would have had to wait until Cryptic designed content that required those ships. Since no such content was planned, the C-Store purchases covered the design costs, gave the players what they wanted and made it profitable at the same time.

Players who made the real money transaction benefit by having the ships unlocked for all their characters. And it made the same ships available for in-game currency as well. (All this improves customer satisfaction, which equals more profit, which allows development efforts to flourish, etc).
I have no problem with fluff being available for more money in the C-Store.

What I have a problem with is Cryptic benefiting from the presence of the UGC we create, while we don't get any reimbursement for the effort. The idea that authors have to further buy the right to use specific items/characters in the UGC system compounds the problem.

It's one thing to buy something for the C-Store for yourself... it's another matter to buy something from the C-Store to benefit others and, by extension, Cryptic.

They'd end up-
- getting money from the author's subscription
- getting money for the C-Store purchase (whether or not it's 100% used for likeness rights)
- getting money from the players who subscribe because of the presence of missions authors have made

And the authors get nada.

Quote:
I'll admit that having a way to earn C-Points instead of buying C-Points is compelling. I remember earning some by taking a Cryptic Survey which was cool.

I'm sure there are plenty of folks who would agree with you. But I just don't see them putting work and resources into designing a system that pays us instead of them.
It could actually work out pretty nice, in my larger vision of what the C-Store could be. In a prior topic I suggested that STO "Time Cards" should be C-Point cards, and subscription time can be purchased with C-Points.

If we had a way to earn C-Points for contributions to the game via UGC, we'd have an avenue to effectively play for free. That is, of course, assuming our missions are good enough to be played often enough to earn ~1400 C-Points in a given month. If that means 2800 characters played your content (at .5cp/playthrough) then frankly... you deserve a free month. For others it may take a while to earn enough, or they'll use them to buy other C-Store content.

Personally I think that would be an outstanding motivator for people to make quality content. It ends up benefiting them, other players, and Cryptic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
10-28-2010, 01:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
I have no problem with fluff being available for more money in the C-Store.

What I have a problem with is Cryptic benefiting from the presence of the UGC we create, while we don't get any reimbursement for the effort. The idea that authors have to further buy the right to use specific items/characters in the UGC system compounds the problem.
Some don't consider the C-Store ship's fluff since they have special abilities. And the people who wanted them in the first place consider them important to their gaming experience. Just like many players don't consider UGC to be "real missions" since they are not professionally made by the game developer.

I never said anything about authors "having to buy rights to use specific characters" in UGC. What I discussed would obtain Likeness Rights for STO in general, and it would do so on a volunteer basis. If you object to how it's being done you simply don't have to participate. But you'll still be able to use a TV Actor in your story once the rights are procured.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
It's one thing to buy something for the C-Store for yourself... it's another matter to buy something from the C-Store to benefit others and, by extension, Cryptic.
Oh good grief... it's completely voluntary. No one is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to buy anything for others. You don't have buy a Patrick Stewart episode just like you don't have to buy a ship from the C-Store.

Those who do buy help Cryptic pay for costs that are not covered by the regular subscription fee. Those who do not buy can still benefit from what was developed for the game. I don't see what's so offensive about it.

And lets hope no tries to sell you something with the proceeds going to benefit Cancer Research. How horrid would that be for you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
They'd end up-
- getting money from the author's subscription
- getting money for the C-Store purchase (whether or not it's 100% used for likeness rights)
- getting money from the players who subscribe because of the presence of missions authors have made

And the authors get nada.
Umm yes, Atari is running a business. Everything they do is FOR PROFIT. Everything they do MUST BE PAID FOR. $15/mo will not pay for all the Actor Likenesses & VO's that players want. It's why STO doesn't have much of either in it currently (you know this).

Sorry, but I just flat out disagree with you about author compensation. This is a game. Why would Foundry Authors get anything in a game beyond Fun, Accolades, and Recognition via ratings?

By signing the EULA you agree that Atari has full rights and control over any content that you make. This is THE SAME with or without TV Series Actors that you could use (or not use) in your mission.

If you're not ok with Atari owning something you write and benefiting from it then you should not participate in UGC period when it's released. The whole business reason behind The Foundry is to increase sales.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
10-28-2010, 02:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
It could actually work out pretty nice, in my larger vision of what the C-Store could be. In a prior topic I suggested that STO "Time Cards" should be C-Point cards, and subscription time can be purchased with C-Points.

If we had a way to earn C-Points for contributions to the game via UGC, we'd have an avenue to effectively play for free. That is, of course, assuming our missions are good enough to be played often enough to earn ~1400 C-Points in a given month. If that means 2800 characters played your content (at .5cp/playthrough) then frankly... you deserve a free month. For others it may take a while to earn enough, or they'll use them to buy other C-Store content.

Personally I think that would be an outstanding motivator for people to make quality content. It ends up benefiting them, other players, and Cryptic.
I'm sure many would like this, but at this point I'm thinking it has nothing to do with Likeness Rights and should be in a different Foundry Thread.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
10-28-2010, 03:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror-Master
And lets hope no tries to sell you something with the proceeds going to benefit Cancer Research. How horrid would that be for you?
That you find my point even remotely comparable to that only demonstrates that you don't understand my point at all. If I buy something with the proceeds going to some cause, at least I get something from the transaction.

All that we, as authors, would get from your idea, would be the capacity to put known characters into our stories with the ultimate benefit going to those who play our content. So why would we be the ones footing the bill and not them?

If you really want a way to pay for for likeness rights then players should be able to pay extra for "Premium UGC" which then gives them access to any UGC missions that feature known characters. Authors would be able to use likenesses at their discretion but, if they do, the content gets flagged as Premium. The burden of payment should be on those who play the content--not those who make the content. Do you think Cryptic paid for Michael Dorn's likeness out of their own pockets? No. They passed that cost onto us. We, the content players, paid for it.
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:11 AM.