Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
11-01-2010, 02:21 PM
Piwright42, my reply was more aimed at AKfourtyseven in relation to my "L2P" comments.

It was aimed to everyone in relation to the direction of the topic, I agree I may have been somwhat assertive in it, yet sometimes it is needed I believe.

Nevertheless, it is funny you are posting the Squirel, because, you are the one that takes it personally (thinking that you are being patronized and not respected) not me.

Now, Husanak, the uniqueness does not always come from Shoe Boxing everything, the uniqueness comes also from the Players, ourselves, because each and every one of us are unique we have a different style of play different preferences.

That said, I am not sure where you see me saying that Ship Classes are not Trek? When I am suggesting a system that is more consistent with Trek, and anyone that has even a slight interest in the technology of Trek, know that there are many different classes of Ships, mainly because Roddenberry himself based his inspiration on WWII Naval Combat, but also because there has been years and years and tons of documentation on it.

Gunboats, Scouts, Destroyers, Frigates, Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships, Dreadnoughts, Carriers, and fightercraft, blockade runners, are all Ship classes of Trek tech Lore.

But that is not what we are directly questioning here, what we are questioning and trying to discuss is the way that all this technology of the StarShips of Star Trek is represented in this game.

I think the way that Ships and their Crews are represented in the game could be more consistent mechanically to Star Trek Technology as has been established in the past 40 years rather than a Fantasy game.

Currently the system is not based on the technological aspect of the Ships themselves but rather on the BO's and their Powers, which creates inconsistencies.

Like the example of the Tractor Beam, which is supposed to be a Ship Equipment, it is an inconsistency, according to Trek Tech Lore, all ships are equipped with one, it is part of standard operations.

Also all ships equipped with Phasers have various modes of operations same as with Torpedo Launchers.

That being said there are several types of Phasers, and several types of Torpedo Launchers, some can launch Spreads of various yields some cannot.

The torpedo launcher equipped at the top of the DS-9 Runabouts is not the same as the one equipped on board a Galaxy ship or a Miranda Class ship.

So Ships, and also the rendition of their capabilities and operations are inconsistent with Star Trek in this game in most respects expect a couple which includes the Looks.

Each ship has different complement of Torpedo loads as well, these are a finite ammunition in the Trek Lore and not unlimited as they are in the game, this is another inconsistency.

(Mind you this is something to think about if we are to ever have some type of proper manufacturing (crafting) in this game, making torpedoes is a fine example provided the player needs to replenish their load, and how many they can have depends on each class of ship too, which in and of itself makes each class unique in that regard).

In Trek Lore all Ships Classes are not equal, each class is unique...so how can you say that I am proposing to make them all equal and the same by proposing to make them more consistent with Trek Tech Lore, in which these are already unique?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
11-01-2010, 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
Piwright42, my reply was more aimed at AKfourtyseven in relation to my "L2P" comments.

It was aimed to everyone in relation to the direction of the topic, I agree I may have been somwhat assertive in it, yet sometimes it is needed I believe.

Nevertheless, it is funny you are posting the Squirel, because, you are the one that takes it personally (thinking that you are being patronized and not respected) not me.

Now, Husanak, the uniqueness does not always come from Shoe Boxing everything, the uniqueness comes also from the Players, ourselves, because each and every one of us are unique we have a different style of play different preferences.

That said, I am not sure where you see me saying that Ship Classes are not Trek? When I am suggesting a system that is more consistent with Trek, and anyone that has even a slight interest in the technology of Trek, know that there are many different classes of Ships, mainly because Roddenberry himself based his inspiration on WWII Naval Combat, but also because there has been years and years and tons of documentation on it.

Gunboats, Scouts, Destroyers, Frigates, Cruisers, Battlecruisers, Battleships, Dreadnoughts, Carriers, and fightercraft, blockade runners, are all Ship classes of Trek tech Lore.

But that is not what we are directly questioning here, what we are questioning and trying to discuss is the way that all this technology of the StarShips of Star Trek is represented in this game.

I think the way that Ships and their Crews are represented in the game could be more consistent mechanically to Star Trek Technology as has been established in the past 40 years rather than a Fantasy game.

Currently the system is not based on the technological aspect of the Ships themselves but rather on the BO's and their Powers, which creates inconsistencies.

Like the example of the Tractor Beam, which is supposed to be a Ship Equipment, it is an inconsistency, according to Trek Tech Lore, all ships are equipped with one, it is part of standard operations.

Also all ships equipped with Phasers have various modes of operations same as with Torpedo Launchers.

That being said there are several types of Phasers, and several types of Torpedo Launchers, some can launch Spreads of various yields some cannot.

The torpedo launcher equipped at the top of the DS-9 Runabouts is not the same as the one equipped on board a Galaxy ship or a Miranda Class ship.

So Ships, and also the rendition of their capabilities and operations are inconsistent with Star Trek in this game in most respects expect a couple which includes the Looks.

Each ship has different complement of Torpedo loads as well, these are a finite ammunition in the Trek Lore and not unlimited as they are in the game, this is another inconsistency.

(Mind you this is something to think about if we are to ever have some type of proper manufacturing (crafting) in this game, making torpedoes is a fine example provided the player needs to replenish their load, and how many they can have depends on each class of ship too, which in and of itself makes each class unique in that regard).

In Trek Lore all Ships Classes are not equal, each class is unique...so how can you say that I am proposing to make them all equal and the same by proposing to make them more consistent with Trek Tech Lore, in which these are already unique?
Take it personally? You hijacked my first post to your thread here and attempted to subvert it to better suit your agenda. You made it to agree with you when it never did. Too assertive indeed.

You have my opinion on the matter. I see no reason for futher discourse on the topic. I do not agree, the officer stations as they sit now add more character to the ships are they are.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
11-02-2010, 09:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Take it personally? You hijacked my first post to your thread here and attempted to subvert it to better suit your agenda. You made it to agree with you when it never did. Too assertive indeed.

You have my opinion on the matter. I see no reason for futher discourse on the topic. I do not agree, the officer stations as they sit now add more character to the ships are they are.
Oh common, relax, I am not here to play Politics and conduct Diplomacy, we are not "in game". Just here to shoot some ideas around, discuss or brainstorm between players.

If you do not agree it is your right, this is not about right or wrong, you are entitled to your own perspective.

Cheers!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
11-02-2010, 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
In Trek Lore all Ships Classes are not equal, each class is unique...so how can you say that I am proposing to make them all equal and the same by proposing to make them more consistent with Trek Tech Lore, in which these are already unique?
While I agree that the Dev's did not adhere close enough to canon in diversifying the vessels of Star Trek in both faction and race characteristics, I still contend that the use of U-slots on all vessels will do nothing but erode what existing diversity we barely posses as it is.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 25
11-05-2010, 03:16 AM
Ok, I'm going to inject my two cents worth here. I posted something similar a long time ago and was essentially told to pound sand. But, I'll try it again:

I believe all ships should have universal bridge officer slots, because it allows for more customization of the bridge layout. Now before everyone starts whining about how this makes the ship nothing more than a skin, here is where the real fix needs to be applied:

All Galaxy-classes should have the ability to saucer seperate.

The Nebula-class evidently has some specialized tachyon detection toy (I haven't used it so I can't talk too much about it) but it allows you to detect cloaked ships.

The only thing the Prometheous-class had going for it in the show was Multi-vector attack mode, and you can bet sooner or later that will make its way into the game as well.

My point being, with all of the different types of ships in Trek lore, the ships themselves should have more specialized ablities, beyond merely being a cruiser, escort or science vessel and not just at rear-admiral level but as a fucntion of the type of vessel they are.

That would eliminate the ships merely being skins as they each have some kind of unique ability.

Universal bridge stations on Federation ships are cannon. The Federation celebrates infinite diversity in infinite combinations, the Klingons on the other hand are a very orderly and strictly regimented species. So when the Feds get stuck with set bridge terminals and the klingons get free reign to place anyone wherever they want, I cry FOUL!

Make all terminals universal, it forces captains to think beyond, this guy is flying a galaxy-class so his highest ranking tactical officer is only a lieutenant. The enemy commander should NOT know that.

What he should know is that my Galaxy-class may well seperate and come at him from more than one spot and he should plan accordingly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
11-05-2010, 08:17 AM
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_riker01 View Post
All Galaxy-classes should have the ability to saucer seperate.

The Nebula-class evidently has some specialized tachyon detection toy (I haven't used it so I can't talk too much about it) but it allows you to detect cloaked ships.

The only thing the Prometheous-class had going for it in the show was Multi-vector attack mode, and you can bet sooner or later that will make its way into the game as well.
So all ships should now have a "Special Ability" as well as Universal slots? Why not ask for insta-kill buttons while your at it? Or Meta-Phasic shielding? Or easy anti-cloaking at your fingertips?

Quote:
Universal bridge stations on Federation ships are cannon. The Federation celebrates infinite diversity in infinite combinations, the Klingons on the other hand are a very orderly and strictly regimented species. So when the Feds get stuck with set bridge terminals and the klingons get free reign to place anyone wherever they want, I cry FOUL!
If the BO slots are universal in canon, why is Data up front at one terminal post doing science stuff, Wesley at another piloting, Worf at another doing tactical and Geordi over on the side doing engineering from the same locations every episode? Seems they all had designated locations to me.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
11-05-2010, 09:02 AM
all uni stations, good idea. as long as you get all uni consoles to complement the powers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
11-05-2010, 02:22 PM
This is actually an interesting topic but I have a different idea how I would handle things. I'm fine with the stations as they are, but there are a few things I'd like to see added to every ship almost, automatically. First off, Targeting Subsystem is so normal in Star Trek, that you see it almost any episode that ship combat is involved. They're always targetting one of the many subsystems. I would probably make this a standard feature and part of the ship. I'd make higher versions either for science ships inherently, or to ask you to use a BOff skill for it. Likewise Tractor beams are standard fare apart of almost every ship including the runabout. It would be nice to see them like this in the game as well.

That being said, I'd like to see a little more variance in what Bridge Officers can do that four abilities. If you ever change a bridge officer while flying around in space you'll notice there's a pause before the change actually happens. At least its always like this when I do the Infected task force. I wouldn't mind being able to buy other abilities for my bridge officers that are 'back up training' that you can hot swap, in a manner, like kits in space. I'm not suggesting kits though, but just rather being able to swap certain abilities to represent reconfiguration and changing of a tactic. Somehow, I think Spock knew more than just: Hazard Emitters, Science Team II, Tractor Beam, and Tyken's Rift as his entire body of knowledge. That's all I'm getting at.

Also, as a captain if we know and can train the Tier 3 skill? why can't we train 1 and 2? That would also be quite nice to do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
11-05-2010, 11:07 PM
Hello all,

I thank everyone that has read and replied with your own thoughts in this Thread. I would like now to bring the discussion a step further, so permit me to post some ideas on a tentative system that I think would give more flexibility to the players and permit for all ships to have Universal BO's, plus bring it closer to Trek.

So without further ado.

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

Universal BO's & Flexibility

The basic Idea is inspired actually from exciting mechanics of the game right now, it will become clear as you read further. As explained during the initial discussion the suggestion assumed that some systems connected presently to the functionality and implementation of BO's would also alter in some ways in order to make this possible, and in what follows I shall try to give examples in order to represent these ideas.

The biggest reason why just making all BO universal would not work has been actually several aspects but related to one another.

1st - It would affect game Balance
2nd - (related to 1) It would alter the role of Ships
3rd - (related to 2 ) Ships would lose their uniqueness.

So first things first,

Ships & ship equipment functionality

The core of the idea consist of making a list of Powers that are normally associated to Ship and Ship equipment functionality from the current BO powers.

For example, Tractor Beam, High yield Torpedo, Rapid Fire, Attack Pattern Omega, Engineering team, Emergency Power to Shields etc.

And then associating these powers properly as part of the Ship standard Functionality and Ship Equipment that the player can change such as Torpedo launchers, Arrays, Turrets Cannons Shields, Impulse Engines Deflector Dishes and Consoles.

Also, associate levels of Powers to Character Rank as well as Ship Design.
For example:

- All ships will by default have a Tractor Beam and the player will have a power in their Power Tray to activate it on all ships.
- All ships equipped with a torpedo launcher will have access to torpedo related powers, such as HY and Spread.
- All ships will have all types of Engineering Teams
- All ships will be able to call upon Emergency Power to various Systems
- etc.

However this will depend on Rank and the Ship as well, so at Ensign We do not have access to these Functionality, and then at Lieutenant we get Spread 1, at Lt.Commander Spread 2, at Captain spread 3, while we could get HY1 at Lt.Commander etc.

Up to what level certain powers go will depend on ships and their role and will constitute ship Uniqueness.

In short, what powers are available to a ship depends on the type of equipment we outfit that ship with in priority then depending on Ship Design and Role and Rank. This is the basic principle which by now you may see that it is inspired from how ground Combat Kits and Weapons work. Each Kit has its own abilities and each weapon gives you abilities depending on its type and role. So the same approach for Space as well.

This also means that slight changes may need to be done to the UI in order to have access to this functionality is a easily accessible way on a per Division focus, Engineering, Tactical and Science.

Finally Consoles, in addition to their standard Effects could also provide some specific functionality, this permits for a greater diversity and rewards.

BO Powers

So by now you maybe thinking, "ok but wouldn't that destroy BO's, and not have a reason to have them?"

Quite the contrary, this will make BO's equally important, the only difference is that your options for action as a StarShip Captain is no longer limited to a few select Powers and Functionality. But BO's are equally important.

The approach does not require any changes to the current skill system, we still put points for our captains the same way as we Rank up, and at certain levels we will still be able to train BO's.

"But train them on what? You just removed all their powers!", you may say.

We train them Specializations.

For instance we can Train a Tactical BO, Tactical Team Specialization, what this will do is give a bonus to the effects of the Power, which is available by default on all ships.

So by default Tactical Teams have an effect as is now for Tactical team 1 for instance, but if you have a Tactical BO with Tactical Team Specialization Grade A, then the power receives a +1 to all effects a reduction in cool-down etc etc.

or another example and since all ships have a Tractor beam not all ships may have a BO who is specialized in the use of Tractor beams so if you opt to specialize of of your BO's to use Tractor beams your Tractor beam will perfom better than another player's ship in which no BO has been specialized for it.

How many Specializations a BO can have depends on their Rank. So an Ensign BO can have one specialization, a Lieutenant 2, Lt. Commander 3 and a Commander 4.

This means you could enhance selectively a certain functionality of your ship but at the expense of others. yet it does not limit you on what options and abilities you have in every ship as a Captain, what limits these depends on the Ship Design and Role.

Thus, you are now free to open up Ship BO positions to become Universal.

Special powers

Special Abilities such as SNB, RSP, Tyken's Rift, Gravity Well etc. Are not abilities associated with normal operation of ships, and are not specializations either. These are in this case Randomly available periodically.

On every engagement a roll is made periodically and from a poll of Special abilities one per BO becomes available randomly depending on what type of BO's you have, so the chance of what abilities pop up depends on the type of BO's you have as part of your bridge crew.

Example:

Lets say you had a tactical Commander, and a Lt Engineer, 2 Lt Science and a Ensign Science, during combat they may suggest Attack Pattern Omega for the tactical officer, RSP for the Engineer, Viral matrix from a Scientist, Gravity well from another and finally Photonic Shockwave for another.

Depending on the situation as Captain you opt to choose using Photonic Shock Wave, at that point all other choices are discarded, and the roll process begins again randomly offering choices following a period of time.

Not unlike when Captain Picard asks the Bridge crew for options or alternatives in a given situation and Data or Riker or Laforge come up with various suggestions and then Picard chooses the one he feels would be more appropriate for the situation.

This at the same time eliminates cookie cut tactics in game, and makes the game play more consistent with the Trek Experience.

It can even go a step further and be combined with a BO progression system where BO's evolve as well and with time get better at doing certain things or their suggestions become more powerful.

A step even further

There can actually be Functionality associated with the differentsections of ships, if you choose this Saucer section it can have some variation from the same Class of ship Saucer variation two. The Akira and the Oslo could be both escorts of the same rank but with different Ship Specs, for instance one could be more beam Based while the other more Torpedo based...and thus more consistent with Trek.


Conclusion

In conclusion, Ships retain their primary role, and can be designed to be closer in capability to Trek.

Example the Miranda can actually have a Torpedo Pod, with 2 launchers able to shoot two torpedoes either fore or aft or one for and one aft, at close intervals.

Each ship design can have different characteristics, and each ship design can have proper Bridge Crews from the get go. Like even the Miranda could have 5 BO's all at ensign, and this would not provide it with more Powers than it could have as per its design specs, and thus be more consistent with Trek as well, and all positions can be Universal, at the choice of the captain.

This way possibilities open themselves for the game. For instance there can be a greater customization of Equipment, Consoles etc. Specially combined with a Crafting system, there is like that many different things to craft and customize.

All in all, with such an approach, BO's can be Universal and each player as Captain can choose their BO configuration as well as customize the functionality of their ships according to their style of play. Plus it is all more consistent with Trek.

That is about it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
11-07-2010, 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
What did the black cat look like? Was it identical to the first one you saw, maybe the same cat?
Why cant each ship have its own unique cew with their own abilities??? I should be able to pick a ship with its own crew and not spend time shifting and shuffling people around.. it reality a ship has its own crew not the ones you bring with them.....
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