Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
11-10-2010, 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
Yes it is true that the Federation's mission is one of Peace, but it is also true that in the face of War it will not hesitate to adapt itself in order to preserve itself.
Well, like I said, the Federation went through countless wars without fighters and carriers - which are of no strategic use to Starfleet anyways, as we have seen in the shows. Why build something that just ends up being a useless waste of lives and resources, as opposed to the "classic" multi-purpose vessels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
We have much evidence from Canon and soft Canon to that, btw SFB, was always done within the context of War it is why it introduced battleships and Carriers.
Yes, which makes it look strange when compared to what we know from the shows (although I do love the SFC games from a purely gameplay-based perspective <3).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
But in Canon we can see this too, like in Episodes such as "yesterday's Enterprise", where the Federation as at war with the Klingon and the Enterprise was a quite different ship than the one we are used to see, it had no families in it only Star Fleet Troops. The Enterprise D, was a Warship in that reality in times of War.
A different reality, yes. That's like comparing the UFP to the Terran Empire. In that parallel timeline, Starfleet was engaged in a devastating war with the Klingon Empire that lasted decades, and the Federation was about to loose. This is far from the state of the galaxy we see in STO, so I don't see why Starfleet should have forsaken its primary mission in favor of waging war. Keep in mind that Starfleet players are still "exploring" in this game, so clearly the pressure isn't that high.

Especially considering that a carrier takes time to design and put into service. What you are suggesting is that Starfleet would have already begun constructing a dedicated warship in a time of peace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
And making Warships, is not the same as making weapons of mass destruction. Warships are considered conventional weapons within the Context of Star Trek Combat.
So? It gives the same impression to neighboring empires. A warship can level a planet just like a WMD, and just like the latter, the ship would have been built with a single purpose in mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
The carrier itself is not that strong always, I was able to bring some down on my own in a cruiser in couple of matches but this doe snot happen often, it was luck, luck that its fighers were engaged elsewhere and not on me, luck that the other Klingon players did not notice me tailing and shooting at it.
And this kind of luck should not be necessary, and it isn't. Without backup and as a cruiser you normally should not even bother with a carrier (except when you get a chance to dump some warp plasma over its hangar bays). It's an escort's job to tie up its pets*, for a carrier without fighters is a lion without teeth. The rest of the team should focus on the other ships or, if the opportunity arises, focus fire on the carrier and blow it up.

The biggest mistake you can make as a Fed is trying to deal with a carrier as if it would be any other ship. It isn't. And it's not an invincible i-win-button. It just takes a different approach to deal with it, if only by neutralizing its presence without actually destroying it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
Another way could be to have Carriers actually count of 3 people in the PvP queue, that way more balanced matches can happen.
Lolno. Now you're reaching. Carriers can be popped way more easy than you seem to think, you don't need a 5v2 or 3v1 (!!!) for that. Have you checked my link?

What I could imagine, however, is some sort of "carrier cap", allowing a maximum of 1 carrier per arena match, or 2 carriers per capture-and-hold. It'll make carrier captains wait a bit longer in the queue, but since we are seeing matches with several carriers in one, just as we see matches with no carriers at all, some balancing there might be possible.

*: I'm currently leveling a Fed Escort especially for demonstration purposes - my only Fed VA so far is a Sci in a Cruiser. Maybe we'll fight side by side some day. :]
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
11-11-2010, 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Well, like I said, the Federation went through countless wars without fighters and carriers - which are of no strategic use to Starfleet anyways, as we have seen in the shows. Why build something that just ends up being a useless waste of lives and resources, as opposed to the "classic" multi-purpose vessels?
My imagination and creativity, but most importantly judgment is not limited to what "we have seen", I am open minded by nature. And I think you are making an assumption that StarFleet consider Fightercraft of no strategic use, just because in reality we have not seen Carriers and Fightercraft mainly because of the Scope of the series and budget related constraints.

Quote:
Yes, which makes it look strange when compared to what we know from the shows (although I do love the SFC games from a purely gameplay-based perspective <3).
And STO is also a game, I think its gameplay could be richer than it is, and it should not limit itself to what "we have seen"...otherwise there will only be 1 to 2 missions for Romulans, we have not seen more than that in all the Series right? and practically no content.

Hey now that I think of it, maybe that is why Klingons lack content too? We have not seen anything more than what is there right?

So, forget about what we have seen, in the sense that our vision and possibilities should get inspiration from canon but not be limited to what it has shown us. You have to be able to go beyond and develop the invisible parts of the Trek-Verse.

Quote:
A different reality, yes. That's like comparing the UFP to the Terran Empire. In that parallel timeline, Starfleet was engaged in a devastating war with the Klingon Empire that lasted decades, and the Federation was about to loose. This is far from the state of the galaxy we see in STO, so I don't see why Starfleet should have forsaken its primary mission in favor of waging war. Keep in mind that Starfleet players are still "exploring" in this game, so clearly the pressure isn't that high.
Actually, it was the same reality but an alternate Timeline, this is why Guinan was able to remain in touch with both. And no Principles were forsaken by the federation, everything of that Timeline was the same as we have seen it up to the Battle with the Romulans by Enterprise-C.

So you are assuming or simply trying to discourage the Idea of having Fightercraft and Carriers for the Federation by trying to use its own Principles against it.

Quote:
Especially considering that a carrier takes time to design and put into service. What you are suggesting is that Starfleet would have already begun constructing a dedicated warship in a time of peace.
I will respond like you. Very Possibly, StarFleet has very good Intelligence and can act proactively with various programs so that it can react appropriately should the needs rise. You seem to have a very low opinion of StarFleet.

Quote:
So? It gives the same impression to neighboring empires. A warship can level a planet just like a WMD, and just like the latter, the ship would have been built with a single purpose in mind.
The federation is a Democratic Entity, its issues are debated based on proper evidence, and appropriate decisions and funding to various R&D programs or Construction initiatives are channeled.

You must think of the Federation being like children to put forth something like that on the table. "Fear of what the others will say???" Since when did Kirk fear what others will say, since when did Picard or Sisko or Janeway feared anything like that? Wuite the contrary they always fought for what they believed independently of what others will say or what impression they will give. And they are only the Ambassadors via whom we get exposed to that Universe. Common you are trying that old trick?

Besides, the TOS USS Enterprise could level an entire Planet and it's primary role was Exploration.

Matter/Anti-Matter reactions are more energetic and destructive than Nuclear Weapons.... And a few Hundred Photon Torpedoes as carried by TOS Enterprise can level a planet if need be, that does not stop it from being a StarShip in a mission of Peace.

It is simple...even when you want to walk in the jungle with the intent of freeing trapped animals and taking pictures, you still have to carry guns able to kill them, because you have to protect yourself in the middle of the Jungle.

having strong Weapons and Defenses, having Warships does not mean that you are not Peaceful...it is not the fact that you have them or not that defines what you are, it is how you use them.

Having attack craft or carriers, for the federation even in Peace time, does not blur its image a single bit, because what matters is how the Federation uses these and when. And it does not use any of its weapons to conquer Worlds in to Submission.

But that does not mean that it does not have the arsenal to do so, that is the single reason why the Federation even exists, with neighbors bent on domination such as the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassions, the Dominion the Borg...etc etc...

So I do not agree with your view about how the Federation would do things because it is mis-judged.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
11-12-2010, 07:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
Hey now that I think of it, maybe that is why Klingons lack content too? We have not seen anything more than what is there right?
Actually, we have. Not to mention that you cannot compare storytelling to background. There are millions of ways to convey a plot, but there can be only one setting.

But since there seems to be a misunderstanding here between us: I've never said that we should forget about soft-canon entirely. I'm just saying there's no need to look at stuff that contradicts what we have seen in hard-canon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
Actually, it was the same reality but an alternate Timeline
Which makes it an alternate reality. In fact, this episode is even part of the "Alternate Realities" DVD collection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
And no Principles were forsaken by the federation, everything of that Timeline was the same as we have seen it up to the Battle with the Romulans by Enterprise-C.
We have seen next to nothing about the Federation of that reality. What we have seen, however, is that Picard referred to the Enterprise as a warship, whereas in the "real reality" he was adamant at stating that Starfleet is not a military. You see the contradiction? So obviously there must have been some drastic changes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
I will respond like you. Very Possibly, StarFleet has very good Intelligence and can act proactively with various programs so that it can react appropriately should the needs rise. You seem to have a very low opinion of StarFleet.
Quite the contrary. I have a high opinion of the Federation. You however seem to think that Starfleet should engage in an arms race with the Klingon Empire akin to the one between the USA and the Soviet Union during the Cold War Era instead of trying to diffuse the situation by diplomatic channels. I really don't believe this is an appropriate representation of UFP ideals. The Federation Council isn't made up of members of Section 31.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
"Fear of what the others will say???" Since when did Kirk fear what others will say, since when did Picard or Sisko or Janeway feared anything like that?
Since when is the Federation controlled by Starfleet officers? Leyton's coup was unsuccessful. And you are not Admiral Pressman. There's a reason for why civilian government and "military" are separated, and you've just emphasized this point.

Also, I wouldn't put Picard in that list of yours, considering that he was very diplomatic and considerate of how things would appear to other empires. In fact, he'd make a good politician because of this. Probably why out of all Captains, he's the only one who became an ambassador later on, and even in TNG often acted as the official emissary of the UFP. Should mean something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
a few Hundred Photon Torpedoes as carried by TOS Enterprise can level a planet if need be, that does not stop it from being a StarShip in a mission of Peace.
Because this ship can and is being used solely for exploration and, in few cases, defense. Like all Starfleet vessels (with exception of the canonically controversial Defiant) are. Their weapons are not intended for glassing a planet; that they can do so is merely a side effect.
A dedicated carrier, on the other hand, is limited to one task and one task only. Waging war. This is a fact.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
having strong Weapons and Defenses, having Warships does not mean that you are not Peaceful...it is not the fact that you have them or not that defines what you are, it is how you use them.
This is not about having strong weapons and defenses - this is about things that can only be used in wars. And yes, a lack of such items is proof that your nation intends to make peace, as opposed to neighboring empires having to rely on their word ("yeah okay we have this huge big battleship that can totally blow up an entirely fleet of yours but we don't plan on using it anytime soon, promise").
You should know how wary Romulans are, and how much of a difference this would make in the diplomatic channels.

"That treaty is the biggest mistake we ever made! Its kept us from exploiting a vital area of defense!"
"That treaty has kept us in peace for sixty years! And as a Starfleet officer, you're supposed to uphold it."

- Captain Picard and Admiral Pressman

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
So I do not agree with your view about how the Federation would do things because it is mis-judged.
Yes, I guess we will not be getting anywhere. Let's agree to disagree, then. Our views of the Federation are just too different.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34 Interesting
11-12-2010, 08:31 AM
Well valias and Suraknar you both have a point and you both are wrong on certain aspects.

The fighter as you both mention is canon. fighters in STO where equal to the runabout. both can do massive damageto each other. the reason you use fighters is so to damage subsystems on a huge ship. hence why the defiant could get up close and personal with a jem hadar battleship and the negvar battle ship.

WHile you can have a emergency beam out on the fighter to keep the pilots alive or have a retreat button to have the fighters return when they are to damaged. this game has been generally canon based. cryptic gets that part. this is why no carreir for the federation has come out but the klingons have had their 4 one appear. As I have mentioned before these fighters are agile and can hold a huge arsenal. taking them down requires you to lock on to a fighter and stay on it for a while.

officially their is no war declared yet. just a tension to war. the details are most important. Now the federation does not need a fighter craft ship as we have plenty of current ship which can carry fighters. just not great numbers like the klingons. do any of us know the right answer. NO, we will all come up with our own possible ways of what can and cannot be used. I say bring in the fighters as they have done and forget the carriers
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 35
11-12-2010, 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEONHART View Post
nifty idea kinda like "galaxy wings" maybe?
you do know that a galaxy wing was several Galaxy class starships grouped into one group, yes?

no fighters or attack craft here...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
11-12-2010, 09:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
This is not about having strong weapons and defenses - this is about things that can only be used in wars. And yes, a lack of such items is proof that your nation intends to make peace, as opposed to neighboring empires having to rely on their word ("yeah okay we have this huge big battleship that can totally blow up an entirely fleet of yours but we don't plan on using it anytime soon, promise").
You should know how wary Romulans are, and how much of a difference this would make in the diplomatic channels.


What.....




Peace is based on firepower. If you cannot protect yourself you invite hostiles to attack you.
A race/person/government bent on making war with you will do so even if you do not have powerful weapons prepared in an attempt to proof you are oh so peace loving.


The Federation NEEDS to be on top with its weapons development, because otherwise it will be overrun by all the predators lurking about.


What has kept the romulans at bay? CERTAINLY not the promise of peace made by the federation, but the might of starfleet.

What kept the klingons on board as long as it did? who knows. fact is they DID turn against the federation several times and they would have inflicted heavy damage if it were not for starfleets firepower.

"Peace is made by people wielding words, but it is uphold by people wielding swords."
- old but true

(oh, and look at tos/tng/ds9.... it is CLEAR that the federation has a lead in the arms race that has gone on for, well, since TOS.)





@ Fighters:


The serve no purpose in battles against major ships, like cruisers and other heavy weights. The ST lore and Technology base explicitly stacked the odds so much against small craft that any attempt to justify their use against bigger ships is simply stupidity running rampant.



HOWEVER: Their strategic value as scouts, light raiders, insurgency warfare tools and pilot training is remarkable.

Too bad none of those roles exist in sto so well.. fighters have no place in sto, really. even the new buffed ones still kinda suck, with the bop and fer jal being the top pets imho).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 37
11-12-2010, 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
Peace is based on firepower.
That's 21st century thinking. Would this game be based on reality, I'd agree! But from all we know about Humans in Star Trek and the Federation in general, they've progressed past that point. It's hard for us to grasp this, just as much as it's hard to see how the economy works and why people still go to work even though there's no money. But that is just how the story goes. It's Roddenberry's Utopia, and in Utopia, diplomacy >>> firepower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
What has kept the romulans at bay? CERTAINLY not the promise of peace made by the federation, but the might of starfleet.
And I say it was the Treaty of Algeron. Picard agrees with me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by claydermunch View Post
(oh, and look at tos/tng/ds9.... it is CLEAR that the federation has a lead in the arms race that has gone on for, well, since TOS.)
Because the biggest, baddest starship in the Alpha Quadrant was ... the Klingon Negh'var battleship? :p

Starfleet favors multi-role vessels capable of performing exploration as well as (if need be) defense, whereas Klingon ships are geared solely for war. This has always been so. How can you suggest a Cold War arms race when we see no evidence for this whatsoever?
Starfleet was staying on par with its (potentially) hostile neighbors because the Federation had an edge in technology and an extremely powerful economy. Not because they were building the most fearsome ships in the galaxy.

(and I still want to see shuttlecraft in the game )
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 38
11-12-2010, 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
That's 21st century thinking. Would this game be based on reality, I'd agree! But from all we know about Humans in Star Trek and the Federation in general, they've progressed past that point. It's hard for us to grasp this, just as much as it's hard to see how the economy works and why people still go to work even though there's no money. But that is just how the story goes. It's Roddenberry's Utopia, and in Utopia, diplomacy >>> firepower.

And I say it was the Treaty of Algeron. Picard agrees with me.

Because the biggest, baddest starship in the Alpha Quadrant was ... the Klingon Negh'var battleship? :p

Starfleet favors multi-role vessels capable of performing exploration as well as (if need be) defense, whereas Klingon ships are geared solely for war. This has always been so. How can you suggest a Cold War arms race when we see no evidence for this whatsoever?
Starfleet was staying on par with its (potentially) hostile neighbors because the Federation had an edge in technology and an extremely powerful economy. Not because they were building the most fearsome ships in the galaxy.

(and I still want to see shuttlecraft in the game )

sigh..... first:


Star Trek has directly shown us how the federation keeps up with the other empires both in fleet strength and in technology, surpassing them in the latter part mostly.
Faster ships, with more endurance, better computers, sensors, highly effective and well developed weapon systems....
While they may preach on about how they are advanced, Humans, the race sponsoring most of Starfleets Manpower, are VERY keen on keeping the edge over their potential opponents. Even vulcans are notorious for this kind of pragmatic thinking.

Its all fine and dandy with the "we are so peaceful speech" until someone who does not give a shiite about that strolls along and kick you in the arse.
Diplomacy is not superior over firepower. Diplomacy REQUIRES firepower. A hostile race will not be brought to the discussion table WHEN THEY ARE WINNING because you did not have the firepower needed to stand up to them.
Do you understand that? The federation can seldom bring up other methods of pressure (economic in nature, for example) to force someone to the negotiation table. What do you want to threaten the dominion with if not your firepower? Do the borg care? Did the klingons when they said "fck khitomer!" and went all war on the feds?!

You
NEED
Firepower, or else you will never survive as a race in a sea of races that are inherently aggressive and expansionist in nature.
Ideals do not protect you from people clearly ****ing on those ideals.And NOTHING ever seen in ST demonstrates that the Federation, or rather starfleet, does NOT agree with me on this. THeir tech progresses, so does their capability to wage war and open cans of whoopass. The Federation has been at odds with the klingons in TOS, and of course the romulans who ACTIVELY yanked the feds chain in balance of power to see if they can get away with pwning them (thanks to kirk and fed firepower, they did not get away with it - preventing a war from breaking loose. your diplomacy is worth shiite, mate.)
The Federation Had real shooting wars against cardassia, twice.
The Dominion.
The ever looming Threat of the Romulans who ACTIVELY planned an invasion of vulcan, a KEY federation world. Who attacked and commandeered a federation starship. Your treaty of algeron sure did jack**** to prevent that, pal. All those things were ultimately foiled by Starfleet and the Skill of well trained (and maintained) personel, and further escalation always prevented by the romulans knowing they could not beat Starfleet in an open firefight - because starfleet KNOWS TO KEEP ITS SWORDS SHARP.


See the pattern?! EVEN IN RODDENBERRY's TIME FIREPOWER KEPT THE BLANCE!!!!



btw: all klingons ships are inferior to federation ships of the same weight class.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
11-17-2010, 03:38 PM
I am starting to wonder how old Valias is, but, independently of your age Valias, know that I have enjoyed our discussion here, sometimes I think we could have made a wonderful RP debate in game if only there was a federation Council to be part of

That being said, you present some arguments in the last couple of replies in a very simplistic way.

Comparing my arguments to those of Pressman, constitutes actually an ad hominem argumentation style. mainly because, you seem to ignore the fact that we have been exposed to Star fleet and life in the federation through the series in a times of PEACE.

This game here happens in a time of WAR.

Furthermore, arguing that the Treaty of Algeron is what has prevented war between the romulans and the federation the way you do is not entirely correct.

First of all that treaty was the result of a very Bloody War where many people died on both sides, and second it has not prevented War, it has prevented Further War, and third time and again we also saw that the Romulans would just jump to the Opportunity to shred to pieces that Treaty if they felt that the federation was weak and good for the taking.

Remember the numerous encounters of Picard and the Romulans, often Picard spoke of "Show of Force", during the Klingon Civil War, suspecting Romulan Involvement, Picard himself argued that the Federation should not stand by doing nothing.

he himself assembled a Fleet to form a blockade..well I am sorry but it was not a fleet full of Flowers and Diplomatic Drinks, it was a fleet of Ships ready for Combat.

Arguing that Diplomacy >> Firepower is Rodeenbary's message is also a falacy. Because Roddenbary's message was about a general Principle, it was Axiomatic, but not Naive.

It related to the Episodic Adventures of the Crew of the Enterprise (which ironically more often than not ended up being a fist fight)...in dealing with the unknown while exploring new worlds and new civilizations in its mission of exploration.

The first thing to try is Diplomacy, not Guns, but if Diplomacy fails, you have to have the guns to protect yourself should your opponent be bent to dominate you.

Commander Suran of Romulus himself qualified Star Fleet as Mighty!

It is not about how much might you have it is about how you use it that determines what kind of entity you are.

The Federation has tremendous might, but it does not use it to conquer others, this is what has changed between our thinking (and that of our ancestors) and the thinking of the idealized Humanity in Star Trek.

And that is what you either seem to not understand or conveniently ignore since it is counter to your own argumentation against Federation Carriers and Attack Craft.

And history has also shown that the Carrier is a superior Weapon in comparison to the Battleship. Even humans of the 24th century would recognize this specially since it comes from their own History.

As such, I am very confident that the Federation should the need arise, would build such formidable weapons in order to be able to protect its peaceful citizens from the onslaught that could be brought upon them by the hostile Klingons with which we are presently at war.

because at the same time I am confident that the Federation based upon its wise principles would never use such formidable weapons to cause harm and suffering upon anyone. And such weapons can always be decommissioned and recycled or even used in the rebuilding of destroyed worlds and settlements upon the restoration of peace and the end of hostilities.

Until then however we have to be able to defend ourselves in order to safeguard the Freedom of all Federations citizens.

I am sorry to say that your arguments do not stand.

***

Just wanted to drop in here and post these last words, I actually have been playing UWO(uncharted Waters online) these past days, which i find quite fun in many aspects, and because I somehow got tired again of the Combat in STO and the way it is governed by abilities and ability combos based on the limitations of the BO system.

I will return form time to time, to see how the game evolves and hopefully be able to play it in a more consistent way. For now I have a world to Explore and Discover

Cheers!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
11-17-2010, 08:27 PM
Valias, the Federation may not have been a military 30 years ago, but it now is. After the Dominion War, Starfleet had many vessels that where focused more on combat rather than exploration. Including the Enterprise - E, Defiant, Akira, etc. All of those where means to protect the Federation from the Dominion. Now, I'm not saying that they weren't refitted later to be more Exploration-oriented, but that probably happened years later.

The Federation is in its darkest hour, with the War with the Klingons, resurgence of the Borg, the Undine infiltration, the True Way Rebellion, and now the Iconians, the Federation can no longer afford to be second to best with weapons. If it is to survive, it must adapt, it must increase its military prowess if it is to survive. Though Exploration is always at the forefront of Starfleets to-do list, it is not as important as making sure the Federation is safe.

As Quinn said, what worked 30 years ago, doesn't work now. I think that the Federation isn't going to wait till the very end to step into gear, they learned their lesson during the Dominion War, they don't want that to happen again. Now, the Treaty of Algernon may have been a deterrent, but that didn't stop the Romulans completely. Remember the episode where the Romulans tried to destroy Deep Space Nine (in the episode where O'Brien keeps going through time.) Yeah, Algernon was still effective, but they didn't stop.

Now, fighters are canon, they may not be useful in your opinion, but you cannot deny canon. They DO exist. Carriers, no, Fighters always warped in with the other ships. So they are not needed. If a ship has any use, any whatsoever, Starfleet can, and will use it to its full potential. I'm sorry Valias, your argument would have worked with the Federation we know, but not now.
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