Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
11-18-2010, 04:59 AM
Quote:
Valias, the Federation may not have been a military 30 years ago, but it now is. After the Dominion War, Starfleet had many vessels that where focused more on combat rather than exploration. Including the Enterprise - E, Defiant, Akira, etc. All of those where means to protect the Federation from the Dominion. Now, I'm not saying that they weren't refitted later to be more Exploration-oriented, but that probably happened years later.
The Federation was always threatened. They were on the verge of a war with the Klingons during TOS, and only the Organian Treaty stopped that. They always built their ship for defense and exploration. There is no reason to stop that now. Doing that is betraying the ideals the Startrek universe represent. That doesn't make any sense to me.

The Federation and Klingons both are idealistic socieites. Their ideals are different, but neither of them would be particularly "realistic" for us. (Or maybe we are just ignoring the realities in our histories that would actually give credence to such cultures existing?)

But even ignoring that, there is still no reason to believe that a Carrier is actually something that "works" in the world of Startrek. In the real world, we can equip our various aircrafts with devestating weapons that can destroy basially anything they could encounter. Missiles, Bombs, Tactical Nukes, Strategic Nukes what-you-want. No matter how big and armored the target is, we have a weapon against it.

But that's not the kind of tech common in Startrek. Neither the Klingons or the Federation can outfit their fighters with the necessary firepower to single-handedly take out a Cruiser, Escort or Science Vessel. It takes dozens of them to achieve anything. Let's say 12 Peregrine Fighters have equal firepower and total shield/hull as a Galaxy Cruiser. This means these 12 would basically always lose, since the Galaxy can target individual Fighters and reduce the enemies firepowers, while it can keep its own firepower intact for longer - the enemies have to deplete the Galaxy's shield before they can start destroying hull components. You'd need a few more of them. And you would still lose a lot of firepower (and personnel and material) in the process.
It would make more sense to build another ship with the Galaxy's firepower but removing all the non-combat-essential stuff like holodecks, long range subscape sensors, labarotories and all the stuff. Something like the Defiant.

In the real world analogy, this wouldn't work, of course. If you want to attack a cruiser, you just have to bring a missile that can target ships and destroy it. Your best defense is to get yourself your own fighter and intercept the other aircraft, and otherwise protect yourself with SAMs and similar defense weapons - none of which are as reliable as the typical Starfleet shields. SAM sites are used to defend against enemy planes, and yet they are destroyed by enemy planes, too.

But in Startrek, you don't need "air superiority" in this manner. You don't have to worry about a lone fighter getting close by. You just have to worry about keeping your shields up and strong, which capital ships do best.

Even Startrek Online really shows all the problems with fighter craft. They only "work" if you send wave after wave after wave. If we hadn't the infinite supply on everything, a Carrier would really suck. 36 planes in the air, two or three Scatter Volleys later, he is without a fighter screen.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
11-20-2010, 12:12 PM
I am not going to argue. I am simply going to post this and end the argument about Federation Carriers.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Akira_class

Note the designer's comments about two thirds down the page.

Will the devs add Carriers? Don't know, but it would not be against canon. I would like the idea to be implemented, and feel it adds to the game. But, of course others have their own opinions and are most vocal about them. So, here's mine.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
11-21-2010, 03:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lariat
I am not going to argue. I am simply going to post this and end the argument about Federation Carriers.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Akira_class

Note the designer's comments about two thirds down the page.

Will the devs add Carriers? Don't know, but it would not be against canon. I would like the idea to be implemented, and feel it adds to the game. But, of course others have their own opinions and are most vocal about them. So, here's mine.
It's also notable that Jaeger wanted the ship at around 500m length, but the Visual Effects guy set it at at around 260. 260 doesn't seem very big for a carrier. This topic has come up before,and whatever the original intentions of the ship's creator where, they didn't make it into the movie.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
11-21-2010, 11:35 AM
Akira designs did appear in TV and films, just not actually deploying a fighter on camera.

There was no intention by any designer to have a Klingon Carrier in a movie or TV show, yet there are Klingon Carriers. Is it then canon?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
11-21-2010, 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lariat
Akira designs did appear in TV and films, just not actually deploying a fighter on camera.

There was no intention by any designer to have a Klingon Carrier in a movie or TV show, yet there are Klingon Carriers. Is it then canon?
Nope. Klingon Carrirers suck already enough. But they are in, and I certainly won't take away anyone's toys.

And of course the Akira is canon. But it's carrier abilities are not canon. It's canon size is smaller then would be required to carry fighters like the Peregrine. You might notice that the Klingon carrier is really big and the Akira... isn't.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
11-21-2010, 02:48 PM
Hey, i have another argument against fed carriers. One that is born from STO's itself.




WE CAN
CREATE
SMALL FLEETS
OF FREAKING
PHASER PHIRING
TORPEDOSHOOTING
HOLOSHIPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!




Why the HECK would ANYONE capable of doing that work to create a vessel that essentially has a similar focus but INFERIOR METHOD!!!!!
If ANYTHING, isay give feds a HOLOFLEET ship.
"Send in all your klingon mook pilots if you want, klingons WE SHALL COUNTER WITH FLEETS OF STARCRUISERs PULLED OUT OF OUR TECHNOBABBLING BEHINDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"




See the point?
We have the tech to deploy holo ships in limited numbers of captains specialized on doing the rear-pull modus operandi (sci *cough*).
SO LETS FURTHER PURSUE THAT TECH!
Holo shipos have rights too, you know. THE RIGHT TO KICK KLINGON ASS!



Seriously: holo fleet is superior to a fighter fleet. Summon a few fighters or a ****** Battleship?
Battleship it is....


Its amazing how this very powerful field of tech is dominated BY THE CARDASSIANS! They even deploy holo ground troops!

Screw Federation carriers, those are ideas from yesteryesteryesteryesteryestermillenium!


go with the times, pals, go with the times...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
11-22-2010, 03:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
It's canon size is smaller then would be required to carry fighters like the Peregrine.
Not to mention that the Peregrines never docked with anything. They have their own warp engines and acted intependently right from the start when the fleet jumped towards DS9. Oh, and the Peregrines are still refitted civilian courier ships - why would Starfleet build a dedicated carrier, but not dedicated fighters?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
11-25-2010, 11:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lariat
I am not going to argue. I am simply going to post this and end the argument about Federation Carriers.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Akira_class

Note the designer's comments about two thirds down the page.

Will the devs add Carriers? Don't know, but it would not be against canon. I would like the idea to be implemented, and feel it adds to the game. But, of course others have their own opinions and are most vocal about them. So, here's mine.
Thank you Lariat. So much for the "Canon, Non-canon" arguments, you singlehandedly solved that one...I would like to quote

"Set nestled between the catamaran split secondary hulls the bridge is nicely protected. Just on either side of the bridge in a notch on top of the secondary hulls are the shield generators. This further protects the command unit of the ship since one of its duties is launching smaller craft, communication protection is a must.

At the back of the bridge there are emissary docking hatches and just below that the circular hatch is the captain's lifeboat. The rear view at the back of the saucer is the main shuttle bay and shuttle control center. This area is also well protected tucked down between the hulls and below the weapons pod flanked by the Nacelles. This serves as a safe haven for the smaller craft in a fire fight and a calm entry point. Also in this protected center region are most of the sensor arrays for the transporters and communications with the remainder of the sensors atop the weapons pod.

Moving forward the notch in the front of the saucer is the forward launch bay doors(3). This is for the fast exit of small craft into battle. There are extra shield generators on either side of this notch as this would be a target for enemy ships. Surrounding most of the saucer section is the phaser array strip. Also on the saucer there are flanking torpedo launchers.

At the rear of the saucer are the impulse engines. Underneath is the deflector dish, 2 flanking phaser arrays and a forward facing torpedo launcher. You'll also notice that the Akira class utilizes the escape pods from the Sovereign Class, but the panel details more like the Galaxy class. That's because I imagined this ship was commissioned right before the "E" and served as a testbed for the new escape pods. At the rear is the weapon's pod with spreads of both photon and quantum torpedo launchers. And of course the warp nacelles. This overall design makes for a much more narrow side profile and a more friendly crew environment as the engineering folks are no longer in 'the bowels' of the ship Also the crew get a better view of their own ship as the split hull allows for more windows and a view of the bridge, something that's not very common in the previous ship designs."


This description shows very well that the federation is more than capable to construct and field ships for War, 15 torpedo launchers, Flanking ones as well.

Unfortunately, it also exposes some caveats that this game has compared to Canon.

To remain on topic, it clearly shows that not only fighter craft are part of Star Fleet but also Carrier Ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
11-26-2010, 12:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
Thank you Lariat. So much for the "Canon, Non-canon" arguments, you singlehandedly solved that one...I would like to quote

"Set nestled between the catamaran split secondary hulls the bridge is nicely protected. Just on either side of the bridge in a notch on top of the secondary hulls are the shield generators. This further protects the command unit of the ship since one of its duties is launching smaller craft, communication protection is a must.

At the back of the bridge there are emissary docking hatches and just below that the circular hatch is the captain's lifeboat. The rear view at the back of the saucer is the main shuttle bay and shuttle control center. This area is also well protected tucked down between the hulls and below the weapons pod flanked by the Nacelles. This serves as a safe haven for the smaller craft in a fire fight and a calm entry point. Also in this protected center region are most of the sensor arrays for the transporters and communications with the remainder of the sensors atop the weapons pod.

Moving forward the notch in the front of the saucer is the forward launch bay doors(3). This is for the fast exit of small craft into battle. There are extra shield generators on either side of this notch as this would be a target for enemy ships. Surrounding most of the saucer section is the phaser array strip. Also on the saucer there are flanking torpedo launchers.

At the rear of the saucer are the impulse engines. Underneath is the deflector dish, 2 flanking phaser arrays and a forward facing torpedo launcher. You'll also notice that the Akira class utilizes the escape pods from the Sovereign Class, but the panel details more like the Galaxy class. That's because I imagined this ship was commissioned right before the "E" and served as a testbed for the new escape pods. At the rear is the weapon's pod with spreads of both photon and quantum torpedo launchers. And of course the warp nacelles. This overall design makes for a much more narrow side profile and a more friendly crew environment as the engineering folks are no longer in 'the bowels' of the ship Also the crew get a better view of their own ship as the split hull allows for more windows and a view of the bridge, something that's not very common in the previous ship designs."


This description shows very well that the federation is more than capable to construct and field ships for War, 15 torpedo launchers, Flanking ones as well.

Unfortunately, it also exposes some caveats that this game has compared to Canon.

To remain on topic, it clearly shows that not only fighter craft are part of Star Fleet but also Carrier Ships.

Well, you have just proven that you fail at being an star trek fan.
Aside from taking without further questioning the random babbling of some designer at ILM and the elevated fanfic of certain sites at face value, you also seem to completely and utterly disregard both what you see on the show and what info is given in context of the show.


For example:

The Carrier aspect is NEVER shown in either DS9, First contact nor voyager. Actually, ALL those shows not only nullify the NEED for a carrier (as all shuttles and "fighters" are warp capable) but also utterly subvert the VALUE of having a fighter in the first place: Fighters accomplish nothing and pop like eggs.
Todays, real life fighters pwn because they can carry the weapons to basically murder everything from huge ship to small dude in a ditch. This is not a given in Star Trek. In Star Trek , small ships FAIL UNLESS they got vastly superior technology and even then its still a uncertain thing. Remember that 25th century timeship braxton used in an attack on voyager? That was future tech, and fighter sized. And it lost.
Those fighters Sisko rammed into the cardassian lines? Did nothing and they died in droves.
yeah.... sucks.

Then i always hear the 15 torpedo launcher myth as soon as the akira is mentioned.
Of course again there is no evidence showing the ship firing torpedoes left and right and out of its arse in any show or film.
AGAIN THE ENTIRETY OF startrek history is making the 15 launcher statement ridiculous.

15 torpedo launchers. Just to put that into any relation to the obviously non fan like you
The Scimitar, A MOVIE Ship that has been dialed up to eleven for action purposes carried 27 torpedo launchers.
You are suggesting that a standard, mass produce federation ship the distinctively NOT THE SIZE of a ******NED HUGEASRSE Battleship carries NOT ONLY more than HALF of that torpedo armament BUT ALSO houses fighters.
I Repeat that. The mass produced akira class has, according to non-fans like you, about halt the torpedo firepower of a single, villain-power-to-the-max fueled, super battleship.



So, i ask you: why did those 15 launchers not barrage the Cube in first contact to tiny bits? At least 2 akiras where there so thats actually 30.
Why where there no fighters? Got killed you say? uh well, nice job wasting space for those then.

Why, in Message in a bottle, did the Akira that was leading the charge of the 2 Defiant class vessels not bombard the romulan warbirds with torpedoes?


Why was the federation struggling in the war with the domion, whose SUPER DREADNOUGHT did NOT carry HALF of that firepower?!





Questions, questions, questions....

The sheer departure from established trek tech should have been a clear stop sign for you. Stop believing every bit of crap some guy says, especially if it contradicts basically every bit of trek and in fact also common sense.



As for the Federations capability to produce capable warships:

WELL DUH!!!!!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
11-28-2010, 04:36 PM
Okay.... let's try and get this thread back on track....

In response to the OP's idea of making a Federation attack craft, why not just make the Peregrine class available? They could make it kinda like a super-runabout: let it mount double-phaser banks, turrets, and dual cannons, with two weapon slots fore and aft, and a Lt. Universal BO slot, and an extra device slot. Maybe 2 tac consoles, and one Eng and Sci console.
Bam. Moderately armed light attack craft.
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