Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 101
10-30-2010, 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camoron View Post
That's not even remotely the same thing. What we're talking about are MMOs. Games buying up fan-made mods/maps to include in content releases being directly sold would naturally warrant reimbursement. We're talking about an MMO which provides tools to make missions. As long as the missions aren't being sold via microtransactions, they are not directly making money on the missions that you make. They're making subscription money for the service as a whole, not for individual pieces of the service.
As Nagus said above:
Quote:
A game is the sum total of its parts, and therefore when you sell a game you sell everything that makes up that game.
That means that what we make in the UGC system that goes on to be playable by subscribers is a part of the product Cryptic is selling and making profit on.

Whether they're sold in the C-Store or as part of the sum total of the game, Cryptic is getting money for it. The challenge is in quantifying how much our missions contribute to that sum total, which you can do by monitoring how much time is spent playing them.

Take a look here. I've run through a sample of the math to determine the potential value-add of a single mission and how the value of the reward scales proportionately.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 102
10-30-2010, 11:47 AM
As a potential Foundry user, I think the issue will boil down to what I agree to when I actually see the EULA for the tools.

I am not outraged about unethical behavior because a few round reasons have been hammered into some hexagonal rationales. There are many unremunerative activities that I voluntarily perform (many for people and organizations that profit from my help/effort), but they are controlled by my willingness.

By the way, the hookers drank all the beer and then demanded breakfast. I really need reimbursement.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 103
10-30-2010, 12:12 PM
I believe, if anything, that if a mission is of quality to the point where it is popular enough, gets enough plays, features, what have you, that the person who made it would be awarded some total of points. So, if they continue to make popular missions then they continue to get awarded a proportionally appropriate amount of points (proportionally to factors such as popularity or number of plays perhaps?).

Having a system such as this only benefits everyone. Having points as a reward encourages people to develop missions or improve on their ability to make missions. Having more quality missions in the game is great for everyone who wants something more to do. Giving out Cryptic Points to people who make said missions would be incredibly cheap for the studio and essentially be piece-work pay. Since digital items are unlimited, the only loss to Cryptic would be a small (I believe) decrease in people purchasing points directly. I also believe that this small decrease in direct point transactions would be much outweighed by increased player activity to play said user created missions; many of the players of said missions probably wont be making missions of their own so they would still be inclined to purchase points directly during their playtime. And since new missions encourages continued or prolonged gameplay, and even new players in general, active players would increase overall and you'd have that many more players considering the possibility of buying points.

You could likely even have it give out 1 CP per unique character playthrough to the author. If it's really popular, or popular enough, they'll reach a few hundred or a couple thousand CP per each quality mission they create sheerly by it's popularity and amount of plays. One could say 'but then CP would just be farmed on extremely short missions where you kill one enemy' well, no. Let's say the author has a second account with 24 character slots. He'd have to log in and out, go to the location, and play through it all 24 times (even if its short) for just 24 CP. Any author would be hard pressed to get the community at large to play it simply for his sake. And since it would not be what you would call a 'quality' mission, its rating would be low (certainly it would never be featured) and it would rarely get played. There are other kinds of requirements you could place upon earning CP from a mission but this is just the basic concept I think would work.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 104
10-30-2010, 12:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
As Nagus said above:


That means that what we make in the UGC system that goes on to be playable by subscribers is a part of the product Cryptic is selling and making profit on.

Whether they're sold in the C-Store or as part of the sum total of the game, Cryptic is getting money for it. The challenge is in quantifying how much our missions contribute to that sum total, which you can do by monitoring how much time is spent playing them.

Take a look here. I've run through a sample of the math to determine the potential value-add of a single mission and how the value of the reward scales proportionately.
Still a moot point. Not that it's even a good one. It goes without saying that there may be some additional cashflow as a result of adding the ability to make UGC (not necessarily from any particular UGC missions themselves). Point is, there is nothing that entitles you to see some form of reimbursement as a result of any of it.

Like I already said, if you don't want them potentially benefiting from or stealing your work, don't submit any. They aren't going to bow to some unreasonable demand for reimbursement when they have absolutely nothing to gain from it and, in the case of C-Store points being used as potential "rewards," everything to lose ("everything" being, namely, money). They have no reason to do this and no obligation to do this, legal, ethical, or otherwise. It's not going to happen.


And if you think I don't know what I'm talking about in regards to UGC, or that I don't understand your argument, I do. I've worked for a tiny "MMO" (not really massive in any regard) for years, as a hobby. I manage and have created content for one of their "classic" servers. They do not pay me. They do not even provide me with free assistance. In fact, if I wanted more dev tools such as a separate server to test things on for them to profit off of, I'd have to pay them for that server. If I wasn't a lifetime subscriber, I'd have to pay them for a subscription for my account. If my server wasn't classic, I'd have to pay them for a Gold or VIP account to work on a private server and generate content that would ultimately bring money to them and not to me. I know what it's like feeling like your content is being used to profit others and you see nothing from it, in fact, you actually pay to continue making it.

But in reality, you're paying for it because they've gotten you to do so! It's their game. If you don't want to make content "for them" and pay them to have the pleasure of doing it, then go make your own game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 105
10-30-2010, 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine_Falcon View Post


I swear. If Cryptic sent FREE beer and hookers to every STO player's home they'd STILL complain!

You people are insane. Insane.
Thats awesome.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 106
10-30-2010, 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peregrine_Falcon View Post
I doubt that I'm about to say anything that folks haven't figured out, but I just can't help myself.

Everyone, meet brick wall. You're wasting your time talking to brick wall. Brick wall is not ever going to change it's mind, ever. I would like to respectfully recommend that you stop beating your head against brick wall. It never helps, you just end up with a headache.

To Rikaelus, aka brick wall. Cryptic is not going to pay people for writing UGC missions. Period. It isn't going to happen, and worse, I believe that you know this. They may offer the occasional in-game bonus to some people that make excellent missions for contests, but due to overly complex California laws regarding contests they may not too. Either way, it ain't going to happen. You want to get paid or reimbursed by Cryptic? Send them your resume.

Anyway, I'm going to enjoy making missions in the Foundry. The fact that it will be fun will be my reimbursement.
Hey, be nice. Rikaelus is making solid, logical arguments; attempting to discredit him via ad hominem attacks contributes nothing to the discussion.

I think Rikaelus is right: Cryptic is about to begin profiting off the (voluntary) labor of its customers. If they really care about doing the right thing, then they should compensate content creators in some way. Cryptic Points would be a convenient method of doing that, and if they used CP, then from a practical point of view the compensation would cost Cryptic very little.

Is it going to happen? Heck, I don't know. But if Cryptic wants to be seen as a company which embraces new ideas and does the right thing even when it costs money, I think the choice is pretty clear.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 107
10-30-2010, 08:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherp View Post
Hey, be nice. Rikaelus is making solid, logical arguments; attempting to discredit him via ad hominem attacks contributes nothing to the discussion.

I think Rikaelus is right: Cryptic is about to begin profiting off the (voluntary) labor of its customers. If they really care about doing the right thing, then they should compensate content creators in some way. Cryptic Points would be a convenient method of doing that, and if they used CP, then from a practical point of view the compensation would cost Cryptic very little.

Is it going to happen? Heck, I don't know. But if Cryptic wants to be seen as a company which embraces new ideas and does the right thing even when it costs money, I think the choice is pretty clear.
Or, they can use a similar method to CoH. If you really are that awesome at making custom content, you get a job.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 108
10-30-2010, 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherp View Post
Hey, be nice. Rikaelus is making solid, logical arguments; attempting to discredit him via ad hominem attacks contributes nothing to the discussion.

I think Rikaelus is right: Cryptic is about to begin profiting off the (voluntary) labor of its customers. If they really care about doing the right thing, then they should compensate content creators in some way. Cryptic Points would be a convenient method of doing that, and if they used CP, then from a practical point of view the compensation would cost Cryptic very little.

Is it going to happen? Heck, I don't know. But if Cryptic wants to be seen as a company which embraces new ideas and does the right thing even when it costs money, I think the choice is pretty clear.
Thanks, Sherp. It's nice to get a little backup. I formalized my proposal and sent it to dstahl, though I have no idea how likely it is he'll even see it. I imagine he gets spammed pretty brutally from folks on the forums.

After defending the idea in two separate threads I'm giving up fighting the fight here for now. I wouldn't mind people arguing the mechanics and logic of my system, but so far it's all amounted to people just saying the system shouldn't exist... which just doesn't make any sense given it benefits all parties and couldn't negatively affect them. It's futile to keep the fight going here.

I might eventually make a thread in the UGC based on my formalized proposal but.. eh.. haven't decided on that yet.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 109
10-30-2010, 09:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blyn
some guy in Texas with a $139 tricorder replica won't be crafting our weekly episodes on a Mountain Dew fueled fanfic spree
those of us who possibly fit this description know that the fun is in writing the fanfic, and sitting back while it is enjoyed by other fans. I wouldn't need any reimbursement.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 110
10-30-2010, 09:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
There's been talk about integrating a type of "featured episode" for community authored episodes as well. Were this to happen, the "featured community authored episode" would most likely get bumped to the top of the ratings list, and have a special icon next to it in the search results page for the duration that it is featured.

You would still need to search for a community authored episode, and you would start the episode the same way you would any other community authored episode.

However, as far as I know it's only something we're thinking about doing, and plans have yet to move beyond that point yet. What do you guys think of something like that?

Thanks,

Stormshade
this is a MUST! lol. I think it would help out in many ways. And if there is a lot of content it will help promote stuff especially if people feel a bit overwhelmed and dont know where to start. So have a feaured episode a good place to start. Or just a great way for the people just looking for good content to find some, realy quick. In the end it might encourage people to look further after they have completed it...

Oh and btw, if cryptic chose to reward someone great what a bonus. But actually trying to (effectively) "CHARGE" them? Surely not. I mean UGC (as much as it may fill the content gap) is a tool for players IF they wisjh to use it..to majke creations of thier own. It's a toolset like on any other game, as such it is a bonus..a "feature" something extra added to the game for our benefit. So any reward would not be owed but given out of good will. I think most people will be just happy they can finally create "that " star trek episode they havwe always wanted
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