Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 201
11-06-2010, 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
Just because they're giving you something doesn't mean you're not still being taken advantage of. Them adding UGC benefits you by letting you tell your story, and it benefits them by helping them make money on our creative efforts.

Like you said, people have been writing fanfics for a long time. But how often does another party profit on those efforts? Well... someone is here.
Will the game benefit from my efforts? I certainly hope so. Will I get something out of it. Yes.

You're not being very clear on how I'm being exploited or taken advantage of.

As a ugc author, I profit immensely from the system.

I'm gaining an audience. I'm able to contribute to Trek lore in my own small way. I'm making missions in a Star Trek video game, which is a privilege, since I never went to school for anything related to video games. It's an enormous gift to the fanbase, especially one like ours that has been immersed in fanfics for 40 years. Plus, it's fun, far more enjoyable than endlessly grinding in an mmo. That's work.

Is Cryptic benefiting from the my labors of love? I certainly hope so. They've put lots of time and effort into giving us the tools to tell our stories. If the game becomes popular due to the amazing stories that Trekkers tell, due to the wonderful efforts of devoted fans, and due to the willingness of the playerbase to play our missions... it's a win for all involved.

And when players are suddenly given more content than they can play... Well, I hope that they players appreciate that.

If you don't want to make a ugc mission, that's fine.

However, you shouldn't characterize a UGC author as some kind of exploited and mindless dupe who is manipulated by a profit-seeking company. We're not chums. We're not being exploited.

We're passionate fans with stories to tell, and we're going to revolutionize this game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 202
11-06-2010, 11:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
In principle I don't have a problem with that idea, but it doesn't scale. Someone who makes one mission of poor quality gets a free month? Too much reward.

An expansion to my proposal sort of covers this, though. If you were rewarded in C-Points that scaled with how much the mission was played, and if you could buy a month's subscription on the C-Store, you could effectively buy yourself free game time if your missions are popular and contribute enough to the game. Since $15 equates to 1200 C-Points, that's how many you'd have to earn... give or take.

It also has the side benefit of turning "Time Cards" into "C-Point Cards", which expands their usefulness. Got a friend who likes to buy ships on the C-Store? Buy them a C-Point Card worth $15. Or they can use it to buy game time. Either way. More flexible.
What do you want to be the motivating force for UGC authors?

It's seems to me that we'll see the highest quality of missions from people who make the missions out of artistic passion, obsession with Trek canon, and a desire to finally write "that" episode of Trek that they've always wanted to see.

We're far more likely to see quality content if there is not a reason to try to exploit the system for c-store points, monthly sub reductions or other factors.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 203
11-06-2010, 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
Those 99.999999% of games don't make a profit on the work of those modders, level designers, etc. .
Trying to get caught up on this debate...

This is not true. Valve profits incredibly from the efforts of modders and mappers. Half-life 2 thrives on modding. The game is still being played by huge numbers, and the game is still selling due to how large its community is. The stable and huge playerbase also leads investors and top decision makers to support Half Life 3.

Without the modders and mappers, the game may have a short shelf life. With an active community of modders, the game may last for years, increasing the revenue and resources of the game makers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 204
11-06-2010, 12:21 PM
1234567890
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 205
11-06-2010, 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post
However, you shouldn't characterize a UGC author as some kind of exploited and mindless dupe who is manipulated by a profit-seeking company. We're not chums. We're not being exploited.

We're passionate fans with stories to tell, and we're going to revolutionize this game.
That's fine. That's your choice. But you would in no way be negatively affected if others' accept their commissions. For that matter you wouldn't be negatively affected if you get one, either. It wouldn't change the reasons why you author UGC. So why disapprove of the system?

If it does potential good for others and doesn't harm you, there's no reason not to have it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post
What do you want to be the motivating force for UGC authors?

It's seems to me that we'll see the highest quality of missions from people who make the missions out of artistic passion, obsession with Trek canon, and a desire to finally write "that" episode of Trek that they've always wanted to see.

We're far more likely to see quality content if there is not a reason to try to exploit the system for c-store points, monthly sub reductions or other factors.
I agree completely that the best work will likely be from those with an artistic passion. They'll go on to make the best missions which are played the most. My proposed system of reward doesn't change any of that. I don't know why you seem to think it would.

The best artists in history were artists because they wanted to be... not because they were out to make a quick buck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirkfat View Post
Trying to get caught up on this debate...

This is not true. Valve profits incredibly from the efforts of modders and mappers. Half-life 2 thrives on modding. The game is still being played by huge numbers, and the game is still selling due to how large its community is. The stable and huge playerbase also leads investors and top decision makers to support Half Life 3.

Without the modders and mappers, the game may have a short shelf life. With an active community of modders, the game may last for years, increasing the revenue and resources of the game makers.
Mhm. Half-Life 2 had a pretty short life. Even its multiplayer mode has fallen out of popularity. It's games based on the engine, such as Team Fortress 2, Counter-Strike: Source, and Left4Dead, that have remained popular. I know. I was recently given ownership of a gaming clan that's based primarily around TF2. I host a TF2 server and two Left4Dead2 servers, myself.

But I digress. That's not really the point I'm going after...

That's a different profit model than what we're seeing here. Valve doesn't make money directly by the work the community does. When a person buys a copy of HL2, they aren't buying all the community-created mods and maps. Those are free. They can download those at any time and Valve doesn't make money. Valve just makes money on the price of the box.

Now, one can try to quantify the value of people buying HL2 with the community contributions in mind, but the community contributions themselves remain free.

With STO, they don't. The only way to get the community contributions for STO is to pay Cryptic to access them. You can't go out to a free website and download them for free. STO profits on their distribution.

Cryptic's model is more akin, but still not quite the same, as TF2's online store in which you can buy community contributions. And guess what? The creators of the contributions make profit, too.

Moral of the story? If a third party company makes direct profit on community contributions, the community should get a piece of it. Your example doesn't change that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 206
11-07-2010, 12:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revlot
[color="Lime"]That would be the point I keep making. It is a 'Socialist' attitude - contribute to the common good without desire for compensation. Kinda like how StarFleet is set up, but I digress.

Perhaps we should all be Capitolists - er - Ferengi, out for our own personal profit at the expense of everybody else - gimmie 5G for my Koik Klone OR ELSE!
Point of fact... I don't like capitalism. And I'm not taking the position I am to support capitalism. If anything... my position demonstrates why I don't like it. I see Cryptic making profit off the work of others and those others not getting their share. Personally I think STO should have a F2P model that includes all of our UGC creations.

Quote:
STO will NOT last forever, no MMO does. Consider that there is now a way for the user-base to continue STO post-Cyrptic via UGC. We should be planning NOW for the day that WILL come when Cryptic says goodbye to us and we say hello to the raw code that we have to keep online ourselvs.
You're fooling yourself if you think Cryptic will release their game engine as open source or sell it to someone else in any kind of near future once they stop supporting the game. And you're also fooling yourself if you think any common nerd has the server or bandwidth capacity to host it. The game, even on a small scale, would take a lot of resources. Plus, it's an engine Cryptic continues to use to create their new games... so giving it out would run the risk of helping people learn how to exploit/hack their other, active MMOs.

Quote:
I am a nerd. tolver@tolver.com and tolver@tolver.net, got my own ISP and mailserver running on godaddy, had 7 machine server farm in my house once. I am not the only ubber-nerd here, between us we can keep STO alive forever. We just need for the bart simpsons to voluntairly step back so that the bill gates among us can step forward and be responsible about this whole process.
Okay... I had an "ISP" running out of my house when I was 16. I currently have a server hosted with the company I work for, hosting dual NS servers, a mail server, database, a half-dozen websites, and three game servers. I have 4 or 5 domain names registered right now.

And I know there ain't jack I would be able to do to keep a game as sophisticated and demanding as STO running.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 207
11-07-2010, 02:59 AM
I see it more as the UGC authors are contributing to the STO community not so much as to Cryptic. Sure, Cryptic is going to make money but there is more to the game than just the UGC, UGC is just part of the game. So, no I don't think there should be any compensation for UGC authors, and I plan on being one.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 208
11-07-2010, 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomicFB
I see it more as the UGC authors are contributing to the STO community not so much as to Cryptic. Sure, Cryptic is going to make money but there is more to the game than just the UGC, UGC is just part of the game. So, no I don't think there should be any compensation for UGC authors, and I plan on being one.
Ah, but you can quantify exactly how much of a player's time is spent playing UGC, and therefor exactly how much UGC is contributing to their subscription income. It's only one piece of the larger game, but it's a piece we have a hand in creating and Cryptic has visibility into it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 209
11-07-2010, 11:20 AM
1234567890
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 210
11-07-2010, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Revlot
So I guess we can lable each mission with what the aurthor wants for it ... hmmmm ... wonder how many free missions will get played versus those expensive missions. Lets see now, I can play a dozen 'blah' missions for free, and then I can spend 1000C to play that vulcan love slave thing, but that james bond thing I wont touch, so my evenings entertainment is 1 mission that I pay some cryptic credits for, a bunch of missions I play for free, and that 1 mission I got to play cause my fleet-mate wrote it, and look there is a new weekly eppisode from Cryptic... and all that is included in my monthly subscription fee, great. I sure hope some people play my mission, it is not that great but still I wrote it so I would like at least a few people to play it so I can get my accolade for writing a mission that got played. I feel so happy to be a part of the community, sharing in others creations as they share mine. I have a sence of belonging here.
Huh? What mission are you paying "cryptic credits" to play?
If you're suggesting players have to pay something extra in my system then you don't understand my system at all... all they have to "pay" is what they pay Cryptic already, with their subscription fees.
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