Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
10-29-2010, 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commadore_Bob
I think UGC should follow the same rules of open source software. If you want to create it for everyone else to consume, go ahead. But you do it for free. Cryptic should spell that out in advance. Creating episodes is for your entertainment only.
Which rules are you referring to?

When i think open source rules I think of "free to use in free products". You can use the open source software as much as you want but you can't turn around and make a profit on the application that's using that open source software.

If that's what you mean then it's already impossible to see UGC as open source software, since the UGC system itself is embedded into a commercial product that someone is making money off of.

If anyone could download STO and play the UGC for free, then I agree that no reimbursement is justified. But as it is, Cryptic profits on STO and what STO offers, which will include the missions we create. It's based on that, that I feel we deserve some sort of reimbursement.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
10-29-2010, 02:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
Which rules are you referring to?

When i think open source rules I think of "free to use in free products". You can use the open source software as much as you want but you can't turn around and make a profit on the application that's using that open source software.

If that's what you mean then it's already impossible to see UGC as open source software, since the UGC system itself is embedded into a commercial product that someone is making money off of.

If anyone could download STO and play the UGC for free, then I agree that no reimbursement is justified. But as it is, Cryptic profits on STO and what STO offers, which will include the missions we create. It's based on that, that I feel we deserve some sort of reimbursement.
I just meant any missions you create are open to the community. You create them on your own time with no expectation of reimbursement. Creating missions themselves are considered entertainment. That's why there is no reimbursement. Whether it's played by 10 people or 10,000 people, if you chose to create content you do it on your own time for your entertainment only.

Cryptic is not hiring you to do their content creation. They are giving you the tools to create missions of your choosing. But those tools will still pale in comparison to the tools Cryptic has and any mission you put together will not be as complex as the missions they can put together.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
10-29-2010, 02:52 PM
Valve is paying royalties to players who create items which get sold in the TF2 microtransaction store. (link)

I don't see why Cryptic couldn't do the same. The main difference is that TF2's business model is selling copies of the game and making money through the microtransaction store, while Cryptic (I expect) makes the bulk of their income through monthly subscriptions and supplements it by selling copies and with the C-store.

Personally, I think writing missions would be much more interesting if there was the potential to get paid for your work if you do a great job. If people knew they could get paid for creating masterpieces, we might see some truly incredible missions get built (once the tools are well enough developed).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
10-29-2010, 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherp View Post
Valve is paying royalties to players who create items which get sold in the TF2 microtransaction store. (link)
Wow, nice find. Not something I'd equate to or find applicable with UGC in STO, but it shows the direction this kind of concept is taking.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
10-29-2010, 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherp View Post
Valve is paying royalties to players who create items which get sold in the TF2 microtransaction store. (link)

I don't see why Cryptic couldn't do the same. The main difference is that TF2's business model is selling copies of the game and making money through the microtransaction store, while Cryptic (I expect) makes the bulk of their income through monthly subscriptions and supplements it by selling copies and with the C-store.

Personally, I think writing missions would be much more interesting if there was the potential to get paid for your work if you do a great job. If people knew they could get paid for creating masterpieces, we might see some truly incredible missions get built (once the tools are well enough developed).
No. I doubt it'd work here.

For one, those items in Team Fortress were made with unique art assets (requiring skilled labor to produce in 3Dsmax or similar software), something you aren't allowed to do with Foundry (the devs have stated we can't create our own models in Foundry).

Factor in that 99.999999% of games don't pay their modders, level designers, etc. - especially when those people are reprogramming the game or generating new art assets.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
10-29-2010, 05:01 PM
Not too sure on whether UGC content can be made private to just fleet or team play, there was some mentionof his. If so what will Cryptic do to stop players running their own charging fee for access to content created by UGC.

Step right up, kill a 100 romulans with a spoon then get 10 minutes free with 7 of 9, only 750K EC and a cap 3 shield..

A whole new micro economy
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
10-29-2010, 05:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Factor in that 99.999999% of games don't pay their modders, level designers, etc. - especially when those people are reprogramming the game or generating new art assets.
Those 99.999999% of games don't make a profit on the work of those modders, level designers, etc. With TF2's items being purchased through their store, it makes sense for some of that to pass on to those who made the content.

Same with STO. You need to pay to access the content we're creating, and some of that should pass on to those who made it.

I recall back in the 90s when they use to have retail packs of maps for games like Doom, Doom2, etc., the people who made the maps got money. Myself and others on a local BBS were actually offered $120/map for inclusion into a Duke Nukem 3D retail map pack.

CafePress is similar as well. Users make content and put it on the merchandise. CafePress makes money through the base price of items. Users can add a markup to make money for themselves.

The principle remains the same. If a company makes profit on the creative work of others, those others should get some sort of reimbursement for their efforts.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
10-29-2010, 05:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
However, as far as I know it's only something we're thinking about doing, and plans have yet to move beyond that point yet. What do you guys think of something like that?

Thanks,

Stormshade
What I'd like to see is Cryptic taking the Best Of The Best from UGC and making them part of the "real game" so that they are no longer subject to any reward restrictions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
10-29-2010, 06:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirror-Master
What I'd like to see is Cryptic taking the Best Of The Best from UGC and making them part of the "real game" so that they are no longer subject to any reward restrictions.
I agree.

Star Trek fans invented Fan Fic. We were writing it before there was even an internet to distribute it on. I've seen guys handing out small books that they typed up by hand with their Fan Fic stories at Star Trek conventions.

Typed by hand. This was back before personal computers, much less the internet. Probably before many of you were born. One guy told me that after he typed up all 200 pages of his story he made copies with the hand-cranked mimeograph machine at the college that he worked at.

This doesn't mean that all of the UGC missions will be great, or even good. But it does mean that a lot of Star Trek fans are excellent writers, so there's a lot of potential for a lot of great stories.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
10-29-2010, 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rikaelus View Post
The principle remains the same. If a company makes profit on the creative work of others, those others should get some sort of reimbursement for their efforts.
The principle would be the same if the mechanics were the same:
  • TF2: there's a store where you actually purchase items made via custom highly, skilled art assets by players.

  • NWN: no store but plenty of people bought the game if only to access the content people made on their own time.

  • STO: is not selling UGC content nor is highly skilled labor involved in creating UGC missions.
UGC requires significantly less work to assemble and is not sold via Cryptic.

You've drawn a specious analogy from too dissimilar examples.
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