Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Light Cruiser Refit
11-01-2010, 10:23 AM
Yes, really. I think these ships can look pretty fantastic, but they're also the first ship a fed players gets, they're kinda clunky, and not very good. They can look great though.

Both these and BoPs are classified as frigates when NPCs, so this got me thinking, what would a Light Cruiser refit for Tier 5 look like?

Light Cruisers can equip cannons and are more maneuverable than most cruisers. They are classified as frigates. The idea seems to be that they are small, light attack craft. Look at the Reliant in Star Trek II, which does this beautifully. This is poorly realized as a player craft, as they seem to be weak cruisers with none of the special tricks.

Likewise, we already have plenty of refit cruisers that do have their own special tricks. We need something else.

I was thinking, an LC refit should be somewhere between an Escort and a Bird of Prey, something more akin to a World War II era PT boat than anything.

If I were given the freedom to design this ship, this is the basics of what I would do.

I would give it a T5 BoP console setup, and T5 BoP weapons setup (having one less weapon than escorts of the same tier). I would give it a cross between a cruiser's and a BoP's bridge officer setup, with engineering slot emphasis and a couple of weak universal stations (still having less stations overall than other T5s, including BoP).

I would give it a maneuverability nearly that of BoP and definitely better than an escort, and BoP hull and shield rating, making it squishier in a fight than any other Federation ship.

However, the BoP makes up for its weaknesses with a full compliment of universal stations and a battle cloak. The LC refit would have neither.

For a special ability, I would continue with the PT Boat concept (and that of the damage the Reliant is seen doing to the Enterprise's secondary hull), giving it a special dual gatling phaser turret with appropriate damage level and cooldown times. Nothing overpowered, but something to give you an edge in a fight, much like the Spinal Lance does for the Dreadnought - something to turn on for a few seconds and add to your overall damage.

I think this would be a fun and distinctive ship to fly. I don't expect the devs to use my ideas, but I would certainly like to see an LC refit sometime in the future none the less.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2 hmm
11-01-2010, 11:44 AM
its interesting but lets shoot to the last time we saw the light cruiser in action along side an escort. During the final push to get to DS9 the defiant and two light cruisers made there way to break the dominion lines. In all honesty the two light cruisers did not make it. Those reliants, i am sure where up to date with the latest tech, phaser, sheilds & personel. they where struck down rather easy. I would say sure lets do another ship refit but its kinda silly to have the STO team do it.

I think we the players should be doing these types of refits. This is where ship yards and that play style can be added. we dont have skins coming out but rather ships that can be built by ones self or by a fleet. these types of ships can be tuned to gain a better precentage at different aspects.

Get rid or revamp memory alpha as a place where its suppose to be. A place of data gathering and information center. Jupiter station is where we should be doing anomilies and utopia ship yards is where we should do ship upgrades, weapon upgrades and create & consol upgrades and create
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
11-02-2010, 04:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by UFP-Magnis View Post
its interesting but lets shoot to the last time we saw the light cruiser in action along side an escort. During the final push to get to DS9 the defiant and two light cruisers made there way to break the dominion lines. In all honesty the two light cruisers did not make it. Those reliants, i am sure where up to date with the latest tech, phaser, sheilds & personel. they where struck down rather easy. I would say sure lets do another ship refit but its kinda silly to have the STO team do it.
In that episode as I recall, the Sitak and the Majestic were providing cover by flanking the Defiant. By doing that, they allowed themselves to be vulnerable so that the Dominion and Cardassian ships would not be able to easily target the Defiant. As the Defiant was carrying the flag, and more importantly, Sisko, the Dominion would make destroying the Defiant priority numero uno. In swordplay leaving yourself vulnerable to gain a tactical advantage is a risky, but sometimes decisive move.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
11-02-2010, 05:03 AM
The Miranda kinda feels "weakish" and dated, but the ShirKar could just as well be a fully capable tier 5 ship for all we know. (I somewhat question Cryptic's decision to put 3 different-era ships on the same tier. It seems more logical if they would be spread across the first 3 tiers, but of course that wouldn't help their costuomziation system.)
The light cruiser seems to best fit as a hybrid between Engineering and Tactical, and a versatile tertiary role.

Light Cruiser Retrofit
Commander Engineering, Lt. Cmdr Tactical, Lt. Science, Lt. Universal
4 Front Weapon Slots, 2 Aft Weapon Slots (can carry dual cannons)
3 Engineering, 3 Science, 3 Tactical consoles
Hull: Same as Vor'Cha
Shields: Same as Fed Cruisers
Device Slots: 3
Skill: Cruiser Retrofit
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
11-02-2010, 08:06 AM
Heck, I'd just be happy for the Miranda to have a rear firing torpedo launcher and a forward facing dual beam cannon, like it did in Star Trek II. (It really bugs me that the Miranda doesn't have a rear torpedo launcher. You can see that it physically has one on the model itself!.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
11-02-2010, 09:40 AM
I still dislike the idea of making clearly outgunned vessels perform as efficient as the top-of-the-line, i.e. Prometheus and Sovereign.

To be honest, the entire idea of how Retrofits are handled in STO began to feel wrong the moment it was introduced. Retrofits shouldn't make any ship suitable for Tier 5, they should reasonably improve its performance to a level where "more" simply isn't possible. You can't make any ship keep up with the most advanced vessels in the fleet - at least not without it ending up to look completely different (see the Constitution-Refit for an example of minor improvements).

My idea would be to give any ship the ability to be upgraded by, say, up to two tiers. And not just make it a completely new ship with an old costume: Just give it (for example) one additional weapon slot, a slight increase in hull, and allow BOs to use higher-level abilities. Maybe slap on one additional console whilst you're at it. Even when upgraded it should never perform exactly as good as a ship that was built for that Tier.

But I guess it's too late for that. So, Light Cruiser Refits? Sure thing, they are cool. But not on Tier 5.

PS: Battle Cloak isn't as useful as you may think. I've seen single Fed Escorts rip through my BoP's [Cap]x3 shields and hull in mere seconds, and I really don't think there needs to be something even more powerful than that. On the other hand, if you make a Fed Escort as squishy as a BoP, it will be the prime focus in every match, and without a cloak (this is the one thing where it comes in handy) it'll blow up just as quick as it would blow up others (I'm also flying a Fed Escort in PvP, and I notice this already). I don't think this would be a lot of fun for either side. PvP fights should never be over in 2-3 secs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
11-02-2010, 10:56 AM
One thing of note,
when giving ships to players you have basically two choices,
you can make the ships behave like they should, a battleship is a big honking space monstrosity, a escort a nimble and fragile glass cannon, a 200 years old ship is a better window dressing etc.
Or you can make it so that the player can chose the ship he wants to fly by what ship appeals to him and keep the ships stat wise so that no one is better then the other.
STO has chosen the later since it allows for the player to fly whatever ship they like and have the same change as someone else.
This gives of course the problem we see now with the old rust buckets performing just as good as modern top of the line ships.

But ask yourself, what do you want, to be able to fly the type of ship you like?
Or be forced to take a ship that you might hate but otherwise you don't can't play satisfactory?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
11-02-2010, 11:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idali
But ask yourself, what do you want, to be able to fly the type of ship you like?
Or be forced to take a ship that you might hate but otherwise you don't can't play satisfactory?
Luckily I have yet to be confronted with such a choice, as STO has a pretty rich selection already and I just don't see the need for unlimited access.

I want to point out, however, that I place great emphasis on atmosphere and immersion, so yeah, I think I'd swallow the bitter pill. I am one of those players who stuck with the Nova (<3) until late in the Captain-content. I do not see this as a limitation since I was given this choice, so perhaps I'm looking at the issue from another angle here.

But to sum it up: No, I do not need to be able to do everything to have fun. Such an idea is unrealistic, anyways, as there'll always be something that simply isn't possible. I'm sure you know the saying about having too many cooks.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
11-02-2010, 02:06 PM
When it comes to Refits, I've always felt that STO could do it properly, if it were put into perspective.

Forget the shields and the hull strength. When I look at a ship that I wish I could fly at T5, the 3 main things that I wish for are:

1. Bridge Officer Slots
2. Consoles
3. Weapon Slots

If a moderate approach were taken, there is no reason that some of the fan favorite ships couldn't be made viable for T5 use, but without making them "as powerful as a Sovereign class."

For example, I would really love for my Constitution Class Refit (Tier 2) to still be flyable for me at T5. But it's options are so scaled back that you simply can't survive in that ship. But, with just a little boost, you could still use a Connie Refit at the top levels, at the very least for PvE, without unbalancing PvP, which seems to be the main concern.

For example:

T2 Cruiser to T5 Refit
Hull Strength: Increase from 19500 to 29500 (higher than T3, lower than T4)
Turn Rate: Decrease from 9 deg/sec to 8 deg/sec (T3 Excelsior Turn Speed)
Crew: Increase from 400 to 600
Weapon Slots: Increase from 2/2 to 3/3
Consoles: Increase from 2 Eng / 1 Sci / 1 Tac to 3 Eng / 2 Sci / 2 Tac (T4 Console Equivalent)
BO: Cmdr Eng, Lt. Sci, Lt. Tac, Lt. Universal (Same number of abilities as T4 Cruiser, with some flexibility)

So, here you'd have a believeable and functional Refit of the Excalibur / Vesper / Connie Refit Cruiser, which allows you to still be competitive against the NPCs at Rear Admiral and Vice Admiral PvE, and you could probably be functional at PvP as well, but you wouldn't be as strong as your regular T5 counterparts.

I think with a Refit program like this, which boosts an older or smaller ship, but not to ridiculous levels, this issue could be settled, with the majority of players happy with it, and we'd all benefit from seeing a wider variety of ships throughout our travels in the STO galaxy.
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