Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 FvK with Carriers
11-03-2010, 08:16 AM
A lot has been said about carriers being OP lately. My experience over the last few days...

Now I do NOT play prime time. Mostly US East Coast mornings. All play has been with PUGS (fairly sure).

Playing strictly FED in 6 arena matches over two days I have been on the winning side 4 of 6 matches. All matches had one carrier except the last which had two.

All the matches started out fairly even then slowly went one way or the other and ended up say 7 to 15. Interesting point here...whoever lost the first ship usually lost the match.

I fly a star cruiser. And I almost always came out top in healing (to be expected) or close on the Fed side. While the carrier came out top healer on Klingon side every time. (logical)

My damage was usually half of what my healing was - as well as being in the middle of the feds ranks. But the carrier was usually high or top of the Klingon side. (this is a problem imo)

Did the carrier die? Yup. Did it die as much as BoP's or cruisers ...no.

Carrier is a very tough target. It requires full team focus and some anti pet tactics. We won the 4 matches killing BoPs then the carrier then cruisers.....In that order - every match.

You can NOT concentrate on the carrier till the BoPs are out of the way. But you also have to force the carrier defensive or it just heals the BoP.

That is where anti pet tactics apply...Eject warp plasma seems to work the best. It takes practice but a stream in front of the carrier really messes with the pets...(they do not avoid)...and the carrier can't (usually).

Now add in a second carrier...and you can't force BOTH defensive unless you have a "optimum" team.

And the bad news is when you can't force a carrier defensive...the star cruiser becomes defensive...and can't heal his escorts.

The score in the last match with two carriers was 15 to 8 (i think). Klingons won as was stated earlier. Both carriers died twice in the match...one 3 times I think.

We had two cruisers and two escorts (not defiant types). The escorts did the most damage (of course) but while they died more...the cruiser were up there. Both escorts would go down then one then the other cruiser....

Did we make mistakes...not many for a PUG. Could we have done better? Maybe, not really the point I'm trying to make.

The points I AM trying to make:

The carrier does lots more damage than a cruiser and heals just as well. Often higher damage than all the other klingons in the engagement.

Cruisers that take anti carrier abilities...lose some ability to heal. Cruisers that heal less...heal escorts less.

The pets have an unfair (game breaking imo) advantage in that they do not change targeting when a Fed cloaks.

The best defense against a carrier is...another carrier. Should the Feds have one? It would take away the Klingon unique ship....but the Feds already have cloak...so the unique is going away anyway.

Did I have fun? Simple answer is yes but it was a LOT of work. My thanks to the Feds I played with...they at least joined the team and stayed together. Focus fire was a bit lacking but excellent for a pug.

Not having voice really hurts....at least once I died typing instead of defending myself. In the heat of battle...its almost impossible to call targets by typing.

Are carriers OP...simple answer is yes. But they can be killed just as any other ship. But the FED team has to know how...and when to focus on it.

Carriers in STO play very similar to real carriers today. They are FORCE MULTIPLIERS. Their contribution to the battle is greater than the sum of their parts.

They are not fun to fight in a typical pug.

They will force more Feds away from PvP. Many don't now.

Why do I PvP with my Fed? I like a challenge...but I have to be in the right mood as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
11-03-2010, 08:50 AM
You ever played a carrier? You know how hard it is to stay in range of the other members of your team due to low turn rate / speed? You realise a Carrier is a science ship meaning more chance to heal up if specced that way?

You PvP in pugs and expect easy games? most Klinks know each other by now as there are that few of them.

Band Wagon moved that way, ========>>>>


please go join them.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
11-03-2010, 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munkehmo View Post
You ever played a carrier? You know how hard it is to stay in range of the other members of your team due to low turn rate / speed? You realise a Carrier is a science ship meaning more chance to heal up if specced that way?

You PvP in pugs and expect easy games? most Klinks know each other by now as there are that few of them.

Band Wagon moved that way, ========>>>>


please go join them.
I tested this out and this was a HUGE reason why I am always at the top of the charts with kills in my carriers. I am mounted with a 4 turrets which means if I am close to targets I am always hitting them with all my weapons. Now turrets do not much damage but with rapid fire and them always firing, no stoping at any time, that will rack up points with damage very very quickly, especialy with 2 beam arrays and BO.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
11-03-2010, 09:24 AM
I use a carrier and refit excelsior in pvp. I cannot stress enough the usefulness of warp plasma and Beam Fire at Will 2 against enemy carrier. There's always a counter.

Plus the fact that carrier almost always drags behind the battle at about 15-20k out due to horrible turn rate. And I wouldn't even go near saying that a carrier heals as well as a cruiser. It's nowhere near esp. if you go Star Cruiser.
Lt. Commander
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# 5
11-03-2010, 09:54 AM
The only issue I have with carriers is their spam. Couple that with the unintuitive targeting system and actually hitting something other than spam is a chore. FvK is more like running SB 24 than PVP. Granted just one carrier isn't much of a pain, but how often is there only one.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 6
11-03-2010, 09:55 AM
I PvP with pugs because its hard....and not enough people on at that time of day to have a viable premade.

I don't care that it's hard. PvP is suppose to be hard...and unforgiving.

And never once did the carrier lag behind. Silly rabit...it is the center of the fight...and all the Klingon teams I have come up against use it as a focus and/or rally point.

I am not blasting carriers because they can heal...they are suppose to. And if you don't think they can heal as well as a star cruiser...check their numbers on the damage board...

I am not blasting carriers because they are leaders on the damage board.

I am blasting play balance when the carrier does both...and other Fed ships can't.

The carrier is not the damage dealer....the pets are. The carrier has better tactical BO abilities to do damage then your typical science ship...but obviously lacks turn rate.

The carrier is a great challenge to fight. But the ability to have multiples just plain ruins the flavor/intent of a decent match.

If this were a true war...Klingons would have won long ago. Feds win by bringing more...PvP game mechanics brings equal numbers at best.

Not to mention those that show up on the damage board with no damage and no heals....interesting that.
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Posts: 120
# 7
11-03-2010, 09:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyryke
Carrier is a very tough target. It requires full team focus and some anti pet tactics.
Anti pet tactics and teamwork, that's usually the biggest problem with PUGs and the reason for why we see so much criticism on the carrier nowadays. As another player put it: Most escorts are not doing their job.

That being said, I wonder if focusing on the carrier after the pets are down is really the best way to go. Considering it's very tough it might be better to concentrate on less resilient ships once the carrier has lost its teeth (=pets).

It is true that the carrier has an extremely slow turn rate and simply isn't as maneuverable, thus can get isolated pretty fast. A good KDF team looks out for the carrier, though, and protects it long enough to enable it to launch its pets. At least I try to stick close to the carrier and "escort" it, aiding its pets and dishing out one or two heals if it becomes necessary. It really depends a lot on teamwork - on both sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyryke
The carrier does lots more damage than a cruiser and heals just as well. Often higher damage than all the other klingons in the engagement.
I think this is because of the pets, and in some way it is balanced by the pets being destructible. The carrier is the one and only ship in the entire game whose damage output can be gradually decimated. Every other ship will continue to fire at 100% dmg output until it gets destroyed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyryke
The pets have an unfair (game breaking imo) advantage in that they do not change targeting when a Fed cloaks.
This I did not know, and I agree that it should be fixed. Of course, this applies to anyone using a cloak. I cannot count how many times I blew up from Fed torpedoes hitting my hull long after I cloaked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyryke
The best defense against a carrier is...another carrier. Should the Feds have one? It would take away the Klingon unique ship....but the Feds already have cloak...so the unique is going away anyway.
No. Please, don't turn this into yet another MMO where the only difference between the factions are the "skins". I'd even prefer to take the carrier out of the game entirely before seeing STO turn into Star Wars, with both sides throwing waves and waves of fighters at each other.

Additionally, even if the problems you listed are really true and not just an issue of tactics, PvP will remain broken anyways as soon as one side has a carrier on the map and the other doesn't.

Kudos for winning those games, btw. I've seen far too many 0:15 KDF wins (even without carriers - it really was quite simply missing teamwork and probably experience) and it's nice to see that real challenges still happen (I had an extremely hard 14:15 battle two nights ago - KDF lost, but it was a fun and epic fight!).

Looking forward to see you "out there". Either as an opponent or an ally (I play on both sides and can only recommend doing so for everyone else as well - gives you a better perspective).

PS: I also heard a lot of people say that one carrier is perfectly balanced but it quickly becomes OP as soon as you have two or more. If this is really true, maybe introducing a "carrier maximum" to PvP matches might work, too? Carrier pilots may have to wait a little longer, then, but from my experience it does not happen that often that you have two carriers in a map, so this should only rule out the exceptions where it DOES occur.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
11-03-2010, 10:01 AM
Up until the revamp on the carrier, Cruisers were often the top of the pvp charts as they deal dammage and heal very well in the proper hands.
The carrier is not OP, just different than what players are used to from past experience concerning a carrier in pvp.
Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 9
11-03-2010, 10:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SF_Steve View Post
I tested this out and this was a HUGE reason why I am always at the top of the charts with kills in my carriers. I am mounted with a 4 turrets which means if I am close to targets I am always hitting them with all my weapons. Now turrets do not much damage but with rapid fire and them always firing, no stoping at any time, that will rack up points with damage very very quickly, especialy with 2 beam arrays and BO.

This right here. I run full (6) turrets w/ 2 versions of scatter volley i have 5 seconds of down time between volleys. i usually top in DPS because i am constantly hitting 3 targets all the time. Carrier are the worst DPS of any ship and relay heavily on Pets for any kind of DPS... the only reason i top DPS when i do is because i am spamming CSV on multiple ships.

Fly a carrier then come back and tell me Feds are at a disadvantage... Carriers have HUGE disadvantages. and ill give you 1 right now... Mobility is horrid...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
11-03-2010, 10:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
No. Please, don't turn this into yet another MMO where the only difference between the factions are the "skins".
THIS.

Sadly I think this is the trend Cryptic wants. In the beginning there's distinct ships for both klingon and federation.

Federation:
Fleet escort
Adv. escort
RSV
DSSV
Assault cruiser
Star cruiser

Klingon:
BoP
Raptor
Negh'var Battlecruiser
Vo'quv Carrier

All of these had different BO slots and each ship was unique to that faction only
Now, you have:

Galaxy Refit = Negh'var w/o cloak but can saucer separate
Defiant = Federation Raptor clone
Vorcha = Assault Cruiser with (much) better turn rate but less hull
Orion cruiser = Soon to be Star cruiser clone (can't say for sure)
Naussican escort = Soon to be Fleet escort clone (again, can't say for sure)
Gorn ship = Future DSSV clone (again, speculative until we see it live)
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