Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Universal Bridge Officers
10-28-2010, 04:27 PM
Hello,

What if all Officer Positions were to be Universal on All ships?

I think the current system is still a bit inflexible when it comes to mixing and matching different Careers with Different ships (example tactical officer using a cruiser, or engineer using science ships) etc.

The Ships themselves already have constraints, in terms of capabilities bonuses and consoles appropriate to their primary role. why do we absolutely have to have an Engineer Commander and not being able to choose a Science or tactical Commander for our ships as an added constraint?

According to cannon, it falls upon the captain to choose whom they prefer to have part of their bridge senior staff. I think it could be beneficial from both a Consistency with Cannon perspective but more importantly, a gameplay perspective giving more purpose to seeking, training and exchanging officers right now, but also to permit us more flexibility with the game itself.

It could also add more purpose to reassigning officers for different mission profiles, I have had the same officers since launch I really do not see the need to change them around much with the current system, on top of it as a tactical officer Commanding Cruisers, I can't even teach Lt.Commander and Commander skills to any of my officers since I have none that could use what I can teach anyways.

I had made a similar Thread near launch and there was talk about First officers, but that never seems to have materialized since then.

I think it would permit for more in-game customization as well to all of us trying different configurations of officers/abilities with different ships. And most importantly emphasize our role as captains too, able to choose our own Bridge officers instead of having these imposed by a standard template associated to the ship itself making it feel less organic, like if Bridge officers were themselves some type of Ship equipment rather than live beings.

What does everyone think about this?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
10-29-2010, 05:39 AM
Why do I have a Déjà Vu?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
10-29-2010, 06:00 AM
lol- I think its a bad idea and will lead even further into the generalizing the gameplay of STO, so much so that all ships will feel the same with little to set them apart or distinquish them by faction, class or function.
Lt. Commander
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# 4
10-29-2010, 06:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Why do I have a Déjà Vu?
What did the black cat look like? Was it identical to the first one you saw, maybe the same cat?
Lt. Commander
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# 5
10-29-2010, 06:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
According to cannon, it falls upon the captain to choose whom they prefer to have part of their bridge senior staff. I think it could be beneficial from both a Consistency with Cannon perspective but more importantly, a gameplay perspective giving more purpose to seeking, training and exchanging officers right now, but also to permit us more flexibility with the game itself.
Wait I thought I did pick my BOs? I chose my BOs from a list. I chose which of those BOs were for the ship, ground or both. I chose who would fill what station from a list of officers on a similar career path. So I am confused by this thread.

Oh wait this is a clever plea for uni-stations.

OK I will admit there is the occasional moment I wish I had one, but once I figure out how to get a ship to work for me that all evaporates.

Did you know that right now I have two Klings one of which is my tied for favorite toon in game. I will have a third Kling before the weekend is over. None of them fly BoPs. One is almost a BG, yet not one flys BoP. Now if I have a considerable amount of time invested in the KDF and I do not chose to fly the only ship in the game with BO stations the way you wish all the ships in the game were, what does that suggest?

I did fly a BoP early on... It popped allot. In part because i tried to use it like a cruiser, and because it pays a heavy price to mount those uni-stations, battle cloak, and mostly their insane turn rate.

Right now in PvP there is a small peace of mind that comes from dedicated BO stations and that is having a tiny clue about what your opponent could throw at you. All ships with naught but uni-stations would destroy that aspect of the game.
Lt. Commander
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# 6
10-29-2010, 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Why do I have a Déjà Vu?
Yes I am sorry for bringing up the same suggestion in two places, I realized after I posted the first one that this area may have been appropriate as well.

It is interesting except the people that shared their opinions on both to see however different people's perspectives.

I found this point quite interesting:

Quote:
Right now in PvP there is a small peace of mind that comes from dedicated BO stations and that is having a tiny clue about what your opponent could throw at you. All ships with naught but uni-stations would destroy that aspect of the game.
I feel this comment demonstrates that Star Ships in this game mean very little in the overall picture, and since BO's are part of ship equipment and not an element which is "floating", like one would expect in reality.

It demonstrates that the combat system of this game is based largely on a "character" model. meaning that not unlike some other type of game, where there are Classes, such as Rogues and Priests and Warriors, this game's Ships and its combat is indeed designed like such a system instead of a system based on Ships.

Lets for a moment assume that we take any of the Crews of ST series and give them a different type of ship, do you think that they will just suddenly lose their ranks and position just because they are in a different ship?

Spock will be commander and first officer of Kirk no matter the ship, same with Riker same with Chakotay etc. Geordi will still take care of engineering just like Scotty did when the crew used a BOP instead of the enterprise (ST IV), and this was not a result of the BOP having universal seats that can accommodate anyone, it was because Scotty was the Chief engineer of that Crew and independently of the ship that crew was operating he would assume that role and would be able to apply his knowledge nevertheless.

All I am trying to say is that in this game the ships themselves are just for looks really, and maybe that is why many find that the game lacks in that area (the game is great in many other areas), specially in PvP, where the combat system is too much ability based rather than ship board equipment based.

Picard would be able to perform any Attack pattern in any ship independently of its role profile.

I know Cryptic may not be interested in improving their Ship system, yet I also know that the game is losing popularity, and part of the reasons it does is also the approach that the game currently has on StarShips and how Combat works, which affects other areas of enjoyment in the long run.

I am not saying Cryptic made a Mistake, or that they intentionally designed the system like this in order to be able o sell Ship Constumes in the C-Store. All I am saying is that there are many people who do not relate to it and would have preferred a different approach.

And if we all have some type of interest in improving this game so that it reaches beyond it currently shrinking population, then this is a very good area to start improving.

No matter how many missions and adventures are added, if the people do not relate to the vehicle that carries them through them the people will not come back.
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Posts: 120
# 7
10-29-2010, 07:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
Lets for a moment assume that we take any of the Crews of ST series and give them a different type of ship, do you think that they will just suddenly lose their ranks and position just because they are in a different ship?
No they would not forget how to do things... however spock isn't going to be scanning at Mr. Worfs consul. Mr. Worf is NOT going to be firing torpedos from sulus station. THE ship is build in one way or the other... I wouldn't expect to see a fancy astrometrics facility on the defiant even if you did have 7of9 on board. The ship has what it has. This is Cannon.

The BOP however is cannon to be universal. They are MASS produced by the klingons in a modular way. The klings designed them to fill as many roles as possible. They don't have 100s of planets footing the bill. They can't design a ship for every occasion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
Spock will be commander and first officer of Kirk no matter the ship, same with Riker same with Chakotay etc. Geordi will still take care of engineering just like Scotty did when the crew used a BOP instead of the enterprise (ST IV), and this was not a result of the BOP having universal seats that can accommodate anyone, it was because Scotty was the Chief engineer of that Crew and independently of the ship that crew was operating he would assume that role and would be able to apply his knowledge nevertheless.
Again what is your point. Put the commander of the space shuttle behind the wheel of my car will he be able to launch it into space? The officer can't reconfigure the ship. Again the only ship in cannon that was used in multiple ways was the BOP... Defiant class ships never had the higher end sci toys. The Galaxy class ships never had the Sci Ship toys either. The Sci ships where smaller more fragile and didn't have the guns the defiant had. The ship layouts in game are pretty close to cannon setups IMHO anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
Picard would be able to perform any Attack pattern in any ship independently of its role profile.
I think that could be argued. I Doubt Very Very highly Picard would have piloted the defiant in the same way he would the enterprise or the stargazer. The Galaxy class is not doing any barrel rolls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
I know Cryptic may not be interested in improving their Ship system, yet I also know that the game is losing popularity, and part of the reasons it does is also the approach that the game currently has on StarShips and how Combat works, which affects other areas of enjoyment in the long run.

I am not saying Cryptic made a Mistake, or that they intentionally designed the system like this in order to be able o sell Ship Constumes in the C-Store. All I am saying is that there are many people who do not relate to it and would have preferred a different approach.

And if we all have some type of interest in improving this game so that it reaches beyond it currently shrinking population, then this is a very good area to start improving.

No matter how many missions and adventures are added, if the people do not relate to the vehicle that carries them through them the people will not come back.
Not really sure how having a Universal slot is going to make you "relate" to you ship any better??? What. If anything you said made sense any player that has played a BOP would never leave the game I guess.
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# 8
10-29-2010, 08:44 PM
I don't think CBS would approve of a Universal Bridge Officer.

Besides, I don't recall any Star Trek character ever dual rolling. The only character that came close was Tom Paris supplementing the Doctor with his medic training. And there was Worf delivering Molly on the Ent-D, but his skills were basic medical training too.


Now I could see Cryptic adding a Command division if roles are further defined, in which Command officers could supplement other characters. But that would require Bridge Officers in space being disabled (injured).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
10-30-2010, 01:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
I feel this comment demonstrates that Star Ships in this game mean very little in the overall picture, and since BO's are part of ship equipment and not an element which is "floating", like one would expect in reality.

All I am trying to say is that in this game the ships themselves are just for looks really, and maybe that is why many find that the game lacks in that area (the game is great in many other areas), specially in PvP, where the combat system is too much ability based rather than ship board equipment based.
Giving all of the ships universal BO stations would go along way towards making a ship nothing more than a skin. As they stand now each class has quirks you have to adapt to and that is more character like than simply setting up a ship for the latest "IwinButton" strategy of the week.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suraknar View Post
I know Cryptic may not be interested in improving their Ship system, yet I also know that the game is losing popularity, and part of the reasons it does is also the approach that the game currently has on StarShips and how Combat works, which affects other areas of enjoyment in the long run.

No matter how many missions and adventures are added, if the people do not relate to the vehicle that carries them through them the people will not come back.
One of the points of Star Trek was that the ship it's self is a character. When I first started to watch TOS as a child it was the Enterprise it's self that hooked me. Of course the guy who kept the Enterprise running was the character I related to first and Scott became my favorite for a time. Then it occurred to me that to control such a ship was more sublime than to touch and tinker with it. Then Kirk and Spock, who's combined intuition and logic guided the actions that the Enterprise and crew acted out, became my favorites. Well if Kirk and Spock tell the crew what to do and the crews actions make the ship do what it does, then the guy who maintains the crew is just as important as the guy who maintains the ship. They are even more important in a way because they maintain the guy who maintains the ship and the guys who command the ship. Then DeForest Kelly's McCoy became my all time favorite. He is the only Starfleet doc to figure this ethos out.

The reason for this diatribe is not one character does it all. Even McCoy had his limitations. Like every character has it's limitation every station has it's function. How often did we see Uhura answer a hail from Sulu's tactical station? How many torpedo salvos did Sulu issue from Checkov's navigation station? How many asteroid fields did Checkov navigate from Uhura's communication console? Just as your arm is your arm and would make a terrible leg.

For that matter if I assign a commander to an ensign station they are still a commander. It's just that the station cannot handle the full awesomeness of that commander. If you recall the set of the 1701 there were many sub stations on the bridge that cover this STO convention. As your selected bridge crew grows the "extras" not in the uniform you selected for your assigned crew get replaced by your new crew selection. Don't believe me? The next time you make a new tier visit your bridge when you fist take your new ship out of ESD1, then visit again when you make level 10 in that same tier and tell me I am full of dookie.

I know, I know. This is the 25th century and the ships are much more advanced, like the two consoles of the 1701-D. Ah but even the 1701-D had sub-stations in the background behind the Captain's chair manned by extras, just like the 1701's. Same story for the 1701-E. Same story for the Advanced Escort as presented in the game.
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# 10
10-30-2010, 01:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azurian View Post
I don't think CBS would approve of a Universal Bridge Officer.

Besides, I don't recall any Star Trek character ever dual rolling. The only character that came close was Tom Paris supplementing the Doctor with his medic training. And there was Worf delivering Molly on the Ent-D, but his skills were basic medical training too.


Now I could see Cryptic adding a Command division if roles are further defined, in which Command officers could supplement other characters. But that would require Bridge Officers in space being disabled (injured).
Actually I think you are not paying attention. We do not see the Dual role happening often in the series and movies, but it does happen.

It happens in the episodes which propel the protagonists in odd and temporary situations, usually episodes that have to do with Alternate time lines, and realities, where we know everything we go back to normal in the end of the episode.

In these episode we have seen almost everyone dual rolling and taking up the functions of someone else that under normal circumstances they would not.

We have never seen Sulu or Checkov being blown to bits so that Spock runs over and takes their place, but that does not mean that Spock does not know how to operate Ships Helm or Fire Torpedoes.

It is just that this is not his normal function, and the episode script did not call for such action, where in the few episodes with alternate times lines and realities the script can afford to have some of the protagonists die or taken out of commission because this is something temporary.

As for Klingon ships, we have seen them exchange role because some guy got blown to peaces (which is fine since they are extras not protagonists), and the captain immediately replaced them with the next candidate from another Station which he or she deemed at the time was less important.

Conversely, this never happened when the crew of the Enterprise was Commanding a BOP, no one got blown to peaces for Kirk to call for someone else to replace them. But this does not mean that they are not capable of doing so.

As such we have seen, even the Ships Counselor take active role in Combat operations, or a Holographic medical Officer, even if these under normal circumstances are not their primary functions.

The point is that Intelligent being are not dumb machines, we are more than capable of adapting ourselves to different circumstances and change our function as the situation calls. And that is the Caveat with the current implementation, BO's are not portrayed or even considered as living beings even if we are expected to see them as such, they have very limited and single functions, like if they were all a Component of the ship itself and what makes that ship up rather than its crew, its operators.

Besides, all Academy Cadets learn all aspects of Star Ship operations and then they Choose (and are Assigned) to the one where they have the most talent in. It is not like a Helmsman is only trained to do one single thing and does not know how to operate a Comm Link.

Because it may happen that BO's die that the Function Structure is demolished in a battle and everyone must be able to step up and change roles, otherwise it would be too easy to disable enemy ships, just kill a few key personnel and the ship does not operate after that. It is part of every cadet's basic training.

That being said,

I think some of you misunderstand me, I am not seeking for an "I win" button, please dissociate yourselves from the idea that what I am proposing is to have all ships have Universal Consoles under the current system. It is assumed in my suggestion that surrounding and connected systems of the game will also be adjusted accordingly to reflect this reality and address any possible issues in relation to the current system.

In the bigger picture what I am suggesting is re-imagining or rebooting if you will this aspect of the game, and BO's are the start point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by piwright42 View Post
Giving all of the ships universal BO stations would go along way towards making a ship nothing more than a skin. As they stand now each class has quirks you have to adapt to and that is more character like than simply setting up a ship for the latest "IwinButton" strategy of the week.
You are right but not exactly as you perceive it. Actually I find it funny that you would say that because right now what makes the Ship is the BO's, so the ships itself is a Skin to begin with, smartly hidden.

If the BO's are made Unversal, it emphasizes that fact, it makes it Obvious! But it does not change it, which means that it is a fact right now. Right now the Ships are but Skins.

And in the rest of your post you are contradicting your own self. Since, you yourself realized, that a Ship independently of its crew should maintain its capabilities.

Yet, in STO it does not, because if we change the crew to Universal it changes the Capabilities of the Ship.

So my suggestion here, actually is in Line to how you would like things to be, where Ships themselves are the beholders of Capabilities and Roles and not the BO complement which ideally could enhance a given ships areas (Offense Defense or Support), but not alter its primary role nevertheless.

The Ship itself, its design, its components and Equipment must determine the role, then the crew comes in and operates it and ad flavor and possibilities to it all, and make Captains feel like Captains being able to choose the configuration of their Bridge Own Bridge Crew and decide the distribution of their Officers, some may like to have a Commander Scientist others may like to have an Engineer or a Tactical officer...Independently of the Ship that they are currently Commanding.

A small Example: The Galaxy Class Cruiser is equipped with Torpedoe Launchers that are capable of shooting in various configurations, Salvoes etc...this does not depend on who is manning the tactical Console it depends on the build of the ship itself.

So yes, we basically want the same thing.
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