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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
11-09-2010, 11:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
While I understand your motives it would make Team PvP a camping ground for PvP fleets to pick off the not so PvP oriented fleets (which are many). I believe that rewards should be across the board with better rewards going to the victor. It isn't a carrot if you can never get it but by luck.
When there are enough people invested in the team arenas, the chances of running into a fleet based premade diminish. Additionally, not all premade fleets are unbeatable (ask me how many I've beaten in pugs), and good non-fleet premades can give them a run for their money. Friends list groups start, groups grow, and pretty soon you have a long list of reliable players that you know like to play in the team arenas.

If you're worried about getting camped by "that one fleet that just destroys everyone" have the queue launch every <insert time variable here> and randomize the matchoffs. Once again, the more teams involved in the arena, the less likely you are to run against that "omgwtf" team. The best rise to the top and are rewarded.

The rewards:
- are attainable through other means. Meaning you are not required to play in the arena.
- have no actual value other than bragging rights.

Being forced to form a team of 5 does several things:
- players that want to "leach" rewards will have extreme difficulty entering the arena.
- players will actually have to think about their team makeups before they enter.
- friends lists and contacts grow.

Other benefits of the Team Arena:
- More clearcut indications of what is and is not broken/overpowered/balanced.
- Longterm incentive to stay playing the game.
- It will help spur the metagame by creating a steady competative environment.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Landuar
I'd love to see this, but only KvF. Don't want feddies hiding away in FvF racking up emblems without a chance to kill them.

The biggest problem with KvF only is that you end up with 152:1 queue ratios (that absolutely destroyed pvp for a very long time)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
11-09-2010, 11:57 AM
Wow, really good points, faithborn. I especially love the "bring the pvp interessted community together" result of your team que. Wouldn't have thought of it that way, but that might indeed happen as a result and would be awesome.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
11-09-2010, 12:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by M4triX
I doubt Zigz was serious about his first initiative. Noone could seriously wish something like that.
very serious
a semi-vocal majority is definately behind the first initiative.
I did not intend to portray one in a better light than another.
both have merrits and flaws
depends on where the community wants to go and where crytic will take us.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
11-09-2010, 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
what I want to see is a dedicated team queue:

Team Queues:
- you can only enter with a team of 5
- you can only queue into the arena from a dedicated launching area.

Rewards (the carrot):
- The winning team receives 1-3 emblems per win. (with no limit to the amount of emblems attainable in a day).
- The winning team receives 1 accolade point towards a dedicated "team arena" title. This title can be displayed in space and on the ground.
- The losing team receives nothing.

From the launching station:
- People would be gathered doing the traditional "escort/healer/science" LFG if they wanted to pug te arenas.
- Venders for devices would be present and all the traditional services (bank/mail/exchange) would be present.

do it cryptic!
My first thought was that this would just make farming easy for a few fleets while everyone else gets even farther behind in gear.

But thinking about it more, I could see this being a good thing. I would limit emblems to 1-per win, and awarded for winning only, but otherwise I can see good results.

The "launch station" would be key for me, since that would be the way for folks that mostly solo (read "me") to link up with organized teams.







This got me to thinking about a general fix for PUG PvP -- organize the teams beforehand. I'm thinking about another famous and exceedingly popular MMO's dungeon queueing system here, where players not only enter a queue, but pick roles that they are prepared to fill. At the very least give one slot to a healer, then another slot that prefers a science disruptor but might go to anyone. Maybe a slot or two could be weighted toward "pure" DPSers first. The exact balance could use tweaking, but the idea is that you queue for up to 2 roles, and get told what role you are slotted in. Afterwards both sides should be frozen at their starting areas for 45 seconds or so while people set up for their role and possibly discuss basic strategy.

My thought is that in that other MMO, usually a player won't declare themselves for a role if they know they can't handle it, and usually they will try to play whatever role the matchmaking system picks as well as they can. Sometimes you'll end up with an oddity where several people who are capable of filling different roles have been slotted in roles which aren't their very best, and the party will switch around accordingly, but for the most part the assembled party is good enough.

Part of my thinking here is that I really enjoy playing a dedicated healer in STO, but if I'm not paired up with escorts there isn't much point to it -- I hate being nothing more than another crappy DPS cruiser on the all-cruiser team. At the same time, I have a lot of fun on my escort when someone on the team is extending my lifespan, but when I'm relying on my own engineering and science LTs trying to stay alive can get pretty frustrating.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
11-09-2010, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cedryk_
very serious
a semi-vocal majority is definately behind the first initiative.
I did not intend to portray one in a better light than another.
both have merrits and flaws
depends on where the community wants to go and where crytic will take us.
Ok, I already almost freaked out about the fact, that there is no "non-casual" pve content. I thought it through and switched to pvp'ing to get some challenging game play and now you come here and tell me it's a valid option to casualize pvp, too. Meh, you may have that swiss-mooded (=neutral , though I don't belive you) opinion, but I have not. If that happens, STO will finally transform into a casual game... and that would mean I'm outta here. And sure thing not the only one. The Star Trek Label may carry that much but somehwere ends my tolerance. Nothing would be gained by this. All we need is content for both, casuals and enthusiasts. And if there will never be pve content for the latter, then let us pvp, for gods sake!

And don't get this wrong, I'm not claiming to be a super-pvp'er... yet (still far away from it). But I absolutely need this possibility on the horizon. Casual gameplay for Jack Average will get us nowhere. But I see, that this indeed could happen. As long as all jacks pay cryptics bills, they sure thing are fine with it (as would I in their position. You know capitalism and stuff).

Just my 2 cents
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
11-09-2010, 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post
This got me to thinking about a general fix for PUG PvP -- organize the teams beforehand. I'm thinking about another famous and exceedingly popular MMO's dungeon queueing system here, where players not only enter a queue, but pick roles that they are prepared to fill. At the very least give one slot to a healer, then another slot that prefers a science disruptor but might go to anyone. Maybe a slot or two could be weighted toward "pure" DPSers first. The exact balance could use tweaking, but the idea is that you queue for up to 2 roles, and get told what role you are slotted in. Afterwards both sides should be frozen at their starting areas for 45 seconds or so while people set up for their role and possibly discuss basic strategy.

My thought is that in that other MMO, usually a player won't declare themselves for a role if they know they can't handle it, and usually they will try to play whatever role the matchmaking system picks as well as they can. Sometimes you'll end up with an oddity where several people who are capable of filling different roles have been slotted in roles which aren't their very best, and the party will switch around accordingly, but for the most part the assembled party is good enough.

Part of my thinking here is that I really enjoy playing a dedicated healer in STO, but if I'm not paired up with escorts there isn't much point to it -- I hate being nothing more than another crappy DPS cruiser on the all-cruiser team. At the same time, I have a lot of fun on my escort when someone on the team is extending my lifespan, but when I'm relying on my own engineering and science LTs trying to stay alive can get pretty frustrating.
That's an interesting thing to think about, but there are a few things which the system you alluded to have going for it that STO would not without very significant revision.

1)It's PvE content that you're queuing for in that system, which makes it fairly non-competitive. It's also at least usually very easy content that you're queuing for in that system. That means that the quality of performance that you're expected to give just isn't very high, nor even necessary to complete the task. That is what made it a (surprisingly) headache-free experience most of the time.

2)Dual specs and role-filling: not only could you switch roles on the fly in that game, you could also just equip different gear and go at it if you were one of several classes that had the necessary abilities untalented-- which worked because it was PvE, and PvE is about being adequate to a predefined task, not necessarily competent at it. That means that a person could queue as multiple roles, which makes it much easier for that system to fill spots.

3)Pre-established "safe" group compositions are fairly obvious: because PvE doesn't think of how to effectively respond to the pre-established safe group composition-- and is in fact designed to fall before the might of just that composition (THDDD)-- what is almost guaranteed to work is pretty much a static phenomenon. PvP, on the other hand, is not so simplistic. Try to nail down the ideal composition for PuGs too hard and you'll just have people designing themselves to destroy that specific composition. And what happens if what you do isn't really any of the above? What's a carrier: healing? Damage? science disruption? What's a cruiser that runs 125 weapon power but throws around a bunch of auxSIFs, hazard emitters, and engineering teams? "Roles" in the first place aren't terribly well-defined.

All this adds up to you getting put on a team without escorts anyway, because all the cruisers queued as damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
The biggest problem with KvF only is that you end up with 152:1 queue ratios (that absolutely destroyed pvp for a very long time)
At the very least, merge the queues so that you can't choose to avoid KvF, and form KvF matches first, then FvF (or KvK) the remainder. Actually, do that for the existing PvP as well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
11-09-2010, 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
When there are enough people invested in the team arenas, the chances of running into a fleet based premade diminish. Additionally, not all premade fleets are unbeatable (ask me how many I've beaten in pugs), and good non-fleet premades can give them a run for their money. Friends list groups start, groups grow, and pretty soon you have a long list of reliable players that you know like to play in the team arenas.

If you're worried about getting camped by "that one fleet that just destroys everyone" have the queue launch every <insert time variable here> and randomize the matchoffs. Once again, the more teams involved in the arena, the less likely you are to run against that "omgwtf" team. The best rise to the top and are rewarded.

The rewards:
- are attainable through other means. Meaning you are not required to play in the arena.
- have no actual value other than bragging rights.

Being forced to form a team of 5 does several things:
- players that want to "leach" rewards will have extreme difficulty entering the arena.
- players will actually have to think about their team makeups before they enter.
- friends lists and contacts grow.

Other benefits of the Team Arena:
- More clearcut indications of what is and is not broken/overpowered/balanced.
- Longterm incentive to stay playing the game.
- It will help spur the metagame by creating a steady competative environment.


The biggest problem with KvF only is that you end up with 152:1 queue ratios (that absolutely destroyed pvp for a very long time)
Overall I would be happy with such a system / similar system.

I tend to agree with Landaur however about somehow getting more Feds into FvK.

Maybe extra incentive / bonus / bragging rights for doing both FvK and FvF?
Applies to both Feds and Klinks, so Klink side would be FvK and KvK.
Hopefully breathes new life into FvK (and KvK).

Waff
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
11-09-2010, 02:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
what I want to see is a dedicated team queue:

Team Queues:
- you can only enter with a team of 5
- you can only queue into the arena from a dedicated launching area.

Rewards (the carrot):
- The winning team receives 1-3 emblems per win. (with no limit to the amount of emblems attainable in a day).
- The winning team receives 1 accolade point towards a dedicated "team arena" title. This title can be displayed in space and on the ground.
- The losing team receives nothing.

From the launching station:
- People would be gathered doing the traditional "escort/healer/science" LFG if they wanted to pug te arenas.
- Venders for devices would be present and all the traditional services (bank/mail/exchange) would be present.

do it cryptic!
only thing wrong with this faith is that you can have a fleet create 2 teams and just farm emblems by letting 1 team win and alternating back and forth.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
11-09-2010, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by N_Danger
Yes to all this. Dumbing down the game or "buffing up" one faction is not needed.

Just some Boot Camp for Noobs maybe.
the noobs already have boot camp, my boots in their camp
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
11-09-2010, 02:48 PM
Putting ppl behind in emblems, why do you think for a second you need to farm them?

so the engineering consoles are nice the science can be use and the tactical are worth buying but the rest of the stuff is just mk xi with 0.00000000001% better stats that require little to nothing improvement over old purple stuff.

I've not even bothered to farm "emblems" from anyother source then pvp -dailys.

And the biggest advantage this would have on the game would be organizedpvp. that alot of ppl already use to talk abunch of stuff could actually get an upswing making teams talking socializing etc.. more ppl doing thise halfarsed "pugmades" to beat other halfarsed pugmades and finnaly leave those total idiotic ppl("exessive runners, cloakers, other boring ppl") away from ruining half decent games.
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