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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
11-11-2010, 09:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardept View Post
this is all well and good for cruisers, but atm escorts are difficult to keep up even when i am in a -tsi- premade, if you cut the healing to escorts they will be the only ships taking any focus fire and thus a liability despite the burst being required to finish a game this side of christmas vs an all crusier team.
Exactly.

Usually there already is a lack of cross-healing and I don't see how making healing even more difficult could possibly improve things. Cutting down on undead cruisers would be good, but not if you do it in a way that hurts escorts even more than cruisers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
11-11-2010, 09:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardept View Post
this is all well and good for cruisers, but atm escorts are difficult to keep up even when i am in a -tsi- premade (if we win 15-1 the escort is always the 1, even 15-5, the escorts are the 5), if you cut the healing to escorts they will be the only ships taking any focus fire and thus a liability despite the burst being required to finish a game this side of christmas vs an all crusier team.

A bop at least will be able to remain in stealth, wait deliver the burst when called, evasive and restealth while stacked with hull resists to cover any focus fire while the shields are down. Tho vs a good team they might not make it to stealth or be pulled out, but that is the gamble, an escort will be followed on mass and not allowed to escape, as will raptors
Escorts, as they lack self-healing to start with, will be the least effected by my proposals and thus gain a comparative advantage. You will be able to plonk one-of-each (ET, Hazard, AUX to SIF) on an escort in the safe knowledge they are not going to be cooling down and pre-made spec escorts will be freed up to use their precious engineering slots entirely for defensive shield heals or offensive DEM.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
11-11-2010, 09:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardept View Post
this is all well and good for cruisers, but atm escorts are difficult to keep up even when i am in a -tsi- premade (if we win 15-1 the escort is always the 1, even 15-5, the escorts are the 5), if you cut the healing to escorts they will be the only ships taking any focus fire and thus a liability despite the burst being required to finish a game this side of christmas vs an all crusier team.
IMHO the underlying problem is:
- the escort is the most dangerous ship, and logically should be targeted first.
- the escort is the least well-armoured ship, and logically should be targeted first.
- the escort has the least health/self-heals, making it the hardest ship to keep alive.

If heals are balanced around keeping the current escort alive (and they have to be), then they are almost certain to be overpowered when applied to a cruiser/science vessel.

My own feeling is that the problem starts with the escort class.

Something that might be fun to try:
- reduce CRF time to a second or 2.
- make escort cannon damage scale with ship speed. (a single pass should be capable of taking down a shield facing or stripping 1/3-half a ships hull or something like that).
- give a tac 1 ability to instantly U-turn an escort, maybe also reducing speed by half.
- give a tac 1 ability to 'dodge & weave' or something which increases the defence bonus granted by speed.

At the same time, take another look at healing.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
11-11-2010, 09:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancom
Exactly.

Usually there already is a lack of cross-healing and I don't see how making healing even more difficult could possibly improve things. Cutting down on undead cruisers would be good, but not if you do it in a way that hurts escorts even more than cruisers.

1. No, because PUGs will NEVER heal each other. All they have is self-heals and so changing self-heals just makes them at an even greater disadvantage vs a pre-made. Right now, you can kill most cruisers unless you are 1v1, but in teams, it is support healing that makes them undead. Sharing external hull heal cool downs prevents instant 'spike healing' from happening over and over again.

2. Escorts would be the net beneficiary of my suggestion as (a) in a premade they can just use their engineer slots for shield heals and rely on the superior versions of external support heals (b) they will have less difficulty killing cruisers who are getting support heals as they are not always 'available on demand' due to the bizarre superiority in efficiency of support heals over self heals due to the cool down issue.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
11-11-2010, 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splutter
IMHO the underlying problem is:
- the escort is the most dangerous ship, and logically should be targeted first.
- the escort is the least well-armoured ship, and logically should be targeted first.
- the escort has the least health/self-heals, making it the hardest ship to keep alive.

If heals are balanced around keeping the current escort alive (and they have to be), then they are almost certain to be overpowered when applied to a cruiser/science vessel.

My own feeling is that the problem starts with the escort class.

Something that might be fun to try:
- reduce CRF time to a second or 2.
- make escort cannon damage scale with ship speed. (a single pass should be capable of taking down a shield facing or stripping 1/3-half a ships hull or something like that).
- give a tac 1 ability to instantly U-turn an escort, maybe also reducing speed by half.
- give a tac 1 ability to 'dodge & weave' or something which increases the defence bonus granted by speed.

At the same time, take another look at healing.
Reducing escort damage is a terrible idea. The problem is not escort fragility per se, it is escort dps vs. target heals. Let me explain:

If an escort has a small window to make a stacked attack, it must do major damage before focus fire either kills it or makes it retreat... but... if you do massive damage because the cruiser you are attacking is just a wee bit slow reacting or has key abilities cooling down, the thing that makes or breaks the viability of the escort is what happens next...

... Can you keep the pressure on and finish them off before their abilities cool down for another use... or do a massive wave of stacked external support heals repair the target back to 100% in the blink of an eye even though their self heals are all on cool down from resisting the incoming spike?

By using my proposal or some variant thereof, heals will come in over time as your healing abilities cool down fully (i,e, your can use them again) or cool down partially (and an external support heal on partial shared cool down is once again possible).

This would somewhat mitigate the sudden see-saw between 5% and 100% hull and actually provide the hapless escort type 'spike killers' with more of a window of opportunity to exploit rather than exasperatingly seeing the hull slam from 5% back to 100% over and over again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
11-11-2010, 10:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardept View Post
this is all well and good for cruisers, but atm escorts are difficult to keep up even when i am in a -tsi- premade (if we win 15-1 the escort is always the 1, even 15-5, the escorts are the 5), if you cut the healing to escorts they will be the only ships taking any focus fire and thus a liability despite the burst being required to finish a game this side of christmas vs an all crusier team.

A bop at least will be able to remain in stealth, wait deliver the burst when called, evasive and restealth while stacked with hull resists to cover any focus fire while the shields are down. Tho vs a good team they might not make it to stealth or be pulled out, but that is the gamble, an escort will be followed on mass and not allowed to escape, as will raptors
You get shot at as you have to lowest hull value. NO on is going to spike a cruiser down in a group that has 2 other cruisers Helping with heals if needed.

Lets look at the real issue.... if 3 cruises in a team all have eng team3... and they understand how to hit the focus target we have. 10-15k in spike healing every 5 Seconds if they roll them perfectly... this also means targeting sub systems would be pointless. If 2 of those curisers also have Aux to Sif 3... there is a another 5-9k in spike healing every 7.5 seconds. Now if 1 of those cruisers has Hz emitters. lol

That math isn't even valid if those cruisers have 2 engi teams which is likely. If 3 cruisers have 2 engi teams each... well being able to Heal 10-15k every 2.5 seconds is crazy. The only hope at that point to stun lock as many cruisers as you can and hope the team can burst them fast enough.

The main issue with looking at these mechanics that I see.... is the huge difference in player skill level. For most players the current mechanics are fine as they are. Of course good players will almost never die.

We can talk about burst will be king ect ect... however they have already made it so Rapid fire can not be chained... they have fixed the stacking issues with attack patterns. (except some of the stacking that begales refered too)
I can spike sure for 10 seconds... and that spike will not be back for 1:30 min. Can the same be said for the crazy healing bursts?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
11-11-2010, 10:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilhippo View Post

Proposal 1:


1. Leave self-healing unchanged. This also has advantage of not upsetting the solo PvE players.

2. But rather than have an arbitrary (say) "support healing other people is 25% less effective" (er, consider that idea Proposal 3)... make it that external INSTANT heals of a given kind only work if the same skill group on the target is not cooling down.
I dislike this idea, as it specifically nerfs teamwork. It's okay to have a general reduction in yo-yo health as a goal, but it's just bad design to make teamwork more difficult.

Another issue is that the only true self-heals are EPtS and RSP. I think this is part of what makes shield healing so effective compared to hull healing; both healing sets have 3 powers with analogous effects, but shields also have two self heals. It won't really matter if friends have their TSS put on cooldown, since the bulk of your shield healing is coming from self-only powers anyway.


Quote:
Proposal 2:

Turn most of the insta-heals into HOTs. This probably means AUX to SIF stays an insta-heal but Engineer Team and Miracle Worker increase in absolute hull healing capacity but do it over time.

I know the devs want to see an end to instant gyrations between almost dead >> suddenly hull repaired... this would have that effect.

Discuss
[/quote]I'd be completely fine with this.

With resistances, HOTs are still very effective on ships that are under moderate fire, but focus-fire would be a bit more of a threat.






I think you're really misjudging what it takes to hit someone with miraculous healing though. One healing cruiser can pretty much top off anyone's hull on their own. If a target is taking so much damage that multiple ET3s and A2SIF3s would help them, they'll be dead soon anyway -- ET3 is nearly a full hull heal if it's fully specced and supported with a couple of SIF consoles.

Where whole-team healing really helps is when the non-healers pile up a bunch of copies of ET, ST, HE, and TSS at the ensign and LT levels. Un-specced and un-consoled ET1 and ST1 are pretty insignificant, but 3 or 4 ships piling them up are a big help.

HE and TSS have their own limit on a whole team using them at once -- they have long cooldowns, and except for cruisers and carriers, they are necessary for self-survival. When an escort uses his copy of TSS on a buddy, the escort is gambling that he won't come under fire during the cooldown. Cruisers and carriers can tank on just EPtS for a while but other ships can't, so using HE or TSS on a team-mate always leaves them a little more vulnerable.

The only thing I could see nerfing about healing would be making the resists from multiple levels of an ability unable to stack -- you get the best resist only.






I'd actually go the other way a bit on heals, and make more only work on allies. Or perhaps add a couple of hull self heals analogous to EPtS and and RSP while making other heals work on others only, so that the "healing" set and "tanking" set are better separated.

The team abilities could be left as they are because without stacked resists, the team abilities are like adding air to a tire with a hole in it. Other heals could all be converted to ally-only.

Engineering and science should each get a new hull self-heal. An EPtSIF ability with hull healing and resistance comparable to what EPtS does for shields would be a good fit for engineering, and since the EPtX abilities are already in high demand it would force some tough choices.

I'm not sure what Science should get as a hull heal. Ideally it should be a HOT and on a system not commonly used for defense to make it a bit more attractive than the engineering self-heal (since engineering is already loaded with tanky goodness, and without HE or TSS usable on oneself sceince would be pretty bare.

Or perhaps HE could stay as is (since hull resists are already less significant than shield resists) and we wouldn't need a new hull self-heal in science. Having an extra "everyone" heal would in some ways compensate for the bad downtime on science heals.

The point is to make it so a player can either tank *or* heal (or sacrifice other abilities to do both) rather than using the same set of BOff powers for both purposes. Healers would depend a bit more on cross-healing from the team, but most already use EPtS 2 or 3, and those are good enough to stay alive while waiting on team support. DPSers would likely gravitate more towards "self-heals", with healing others being more of a conscious sacrifice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
11-11-2010, 11:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husanak View Post
You get shot at as you have to lowest hull value. NO on is going to spike a cruiser down in a group that has 2 other cruisers Helping with heals if needed.
Exactly. Cruisers are not a viable target in a team because even if they only just survive the initial spike, other cruisers will have them up to 100% in seconds.

Quote:
I can spike sure for 10 seconds... and that spike will not be back for 1:30 min. Can the same be said for the crazy healing bursts?
Indeed, and therein lies the problem I am trying to address.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
11-11-2010, 11:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by inktomi19d View Post
I dislike this idea, as it specifically nerfs teamwork. It's okay to have a general reduction in yo-yo health as a goal, but it's just bad design to make teamwork more difficult.
Its not a bug in my proposals, it is the core feature. I am indeed trying to make team healing more challenging to do... but by no means does this make it impossible. Indeed one cruiser supporting one other ship would not be that different to now in practice... it is in full teams that this would make massive spike healing significantly harder (but again, not completely impossible).

My ideal outcome would be that full team focus fire is no longer the only way to take people down (and face it, against a great team, even that tends not to work now), but rather some focus fire and some individual fire to put would-be healers under pressure might actually work. Anything that stops support heals having an intrinsic cool down advantage over self heals will make it rarer for us to see truly undead cruisers.

Would my ideas have that effect? Dunno for sure but I think so. But at least we need to be thinking about the problems caused by making team healing intrinsically more efficient than self healing, without nerfing self healing and making cruisers pointless once again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
11-11-2010, 11:31 AM
The current self-heals avaialbe to Escorts are not sufficient to keep them alive. How should nerfing support healing help them in any way? Not that your suggestion 1) even changes anything for the Escorts.

Cruisers "trick" is that they can keep themselves alive against moderate damage against enemy fire and still use their active heals on others.
So, my suggestion would be to nerf the higher level versions of the self-heals. Emergency Power to shields should simply grant less resistance bonuses at higher tiers. Suddenly a Cruiser can't keep up +50 % resistances all the time.
My favorite approach for this would be to make shield power grant more resistance and Bridge Officer abilities (or at least Emergency Power to Shields) less.

Once you are there, you can start checking how or if to nerf the support heals. Because all classes, and not just Cruisers, need less support abilities to survive.
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