Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
As we all know, ship combat is awesome, but it doesn't feel all like "Trek." Now, just to start off, here is a little snidbit from a Dev.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snix View Post
Greetings all,

Thanks for all the great feedback in this thread! There have been several examples and possible solutions presented and we'll be making small adjustments soon in 3.1 and 3.2 to help address these concerns.

The one aspect I'll comment on here that I feel contributes negatively to the feel of space combat is the way hull healing can return a ship to 100% in such a short period of time. I believe that a gradual descent to 0%, slowed and held off outright by healing and resistances or accelerated with damage buffs and focus fire, would be preferable to the current extremes of almost dead to full health.

We'll be looking at making some adjustments that assist in avoiding damage while also ensuring that damage dealt is harder to remove. As an engagement progresses, more ships on both sides should be fighting at 75-25% health, rather than one side at 0 and the winning side recovered immediately to 100.

Some possible tweaks that can contribute to this (some of which mentioned in this thread):
  • Improving the speed defense bonus to avoid damage entirely
  • Increasing the importance of Shield Power for resistance and shield recovery
  • A bit more shield bleedthrough by default, which brings hull and shield levels down together gradually and allows more time for regeneration to keep a shield up even if the ship's hull suffers a bit
  • Reducing the effect of hull healing, especially instant heals, to promote slowed health loss in battle rather than ping-pong between extremes
  • Lingering minor ship injuries in combat that can be repaired by Crew, but temporarily bestow small debuffs while active
  • Providing Crew functionality that allows the player to focus their effort on damage control, damage recovery, ship efficiency, or bridge efficiency to allow for a bit of extra defense or offense as the situation warrants

NOW THAT SOUNDS LIKE TREK. Though heals should not be completely abandoned, they should be used as a last resort.

Now, another thing I like is having Hull Armor separate from Engineering slots.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...ght=Hull+Armor


Now, how to balance. The idea for decreasing the importance of heals is good, but you will need to increase the amount of hull, and/or decrease the amount of DPS. Also, having the armor slots would mean that the buffs given from armor should go down.

My next proposal is more along the lines of roleplay. PERSISTENT DAMAGE. That would be cool, and a way for players to know that their ship is screwed up. Nacelles blasted off, Saucers with holes in them, etc, etc. Now, the minor injuries could have a physical impact, meaning if a ship has an injury, the ship will have some sort of damage on it, even if it is at 100%. Not as bad as if it where at 25%, but still there. Also, different levels of damage.

Now, Science Ships and Escorts are in need of love. Cruisers, yeah, don't mess with them. Now is the time to BOOST, not NERF.

Science Ships should have a decent amount of hull (come on, they basically are the smaller versions of Cruisers.) They need to focus not on DPS, but on buffs and debuffs. Powers like tractor beams, Tyken's rift, etc could be made to be more effective. Though in terms of speed, maneuverability, and hull. They are midline because of their "quasi-cruiser" status. Escorts focus on speed and DPS. They should have the ability to "dodge" incoming fire completely, especially smaller ones like the Defiant. Cruisers are the brutes. Large and powerful. Right now, they are good. They focus on defense, abilities like AUX to Inertial Dampers, etc. They focus on shields and hull resistance and heals.

Also, the ability to knock out subsytems (without the powers) would be nice. Beam : Target powers could give a buff in hitting the system and disabling it, but all ships should have the power of targeting enemy subsystems. In terms of this, look at Bridge Commander, that was an awesome game.

Now, Klingons, some thing, but with a few additions.

Cloak is overpowered. It should not be used as a way to insta-heal, but as a way to reposition you ship and get a new firing angle on it. I feel that the changes made could influence that. It might also allow the ability for ALL Klingon ships to be able to Cloak in Battle. Now, BOPS will always remain the masters of cloaking with a lesser chance to get caught. Carriers could cause a problem though. They would need some sort of restriction to balance their capabilities.


That is my feedback. I want everyone to post, and support this thread on their ideas on how to improve Space Combat.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
11-10-2010, 05:52 AM
Quote:
Cloak is overpowered. It should not be used as a way to insta-heal
What healing? The only way a cloaked ship can heal is if the PC activates a heal before cloaking and this doesn't help with shields as the power drops to zero upon entering a cloaked state, so only hull heals carry over and have any effect. Unless in the B'rel-R, heals can not even be activated while cloaked.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
11-10-2010, 06:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
Though heals should not be completely abandoned, they should be used as a last resort.
Agreed. Hull heals are a real bi*** in PvP. As an escort captain it's a pain to do decent DPS to a cruiser (being supported by teammates) only for it to pop back up to full health. It feels like a CE situation sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
Now, another thing I like is having Hull Armor separate from Engineering slots.

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...ght=Hull+Armor
Read this thread just before this one. I love the possibility of skin changes that this would make possible, along with the idea of heavier armour creating a higher mass and a slowing of a ship. One of the replies suggested that armour get "burned through" before hull damae takes place, but I'm not sure I like having armour a destructible item. Maybe we need to create a "wear" system. As armour is damaged, it becomes less useful until you return to ESD or Qu'nos and repair it for EC. Like in classic RPGs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
My next proposal is more along the lines of roleplay. PERSISTENT DAMAGE. That would be cool, and a way for players to know that their ship is screwed up. Nacelles blasted off, Saucers with holes in them, etc, etc. Now, the minor injuries could have a physical impact, meaning if a ship has an injury, the ship will have some sort of damage on it, even if it is at 100%. Not as bad as if it where at 25%, but still there. Also, different levels of damage.
/Signed. Kinda ties in with my hope for item wear.

I won't quote the entire last portion, but I agree we've seen enough NERFs for now. Cruisers are actually about right in terms of stats for the time being. I want to see boosts to Escorts and Sci Vessels now.

I like my escort, i like boosting engine power to 125 and hitting EM and watching the impulse factor climb. But often that happens cuz I need to get a heal from a teammate and ditch my aggressor cuz I'm flying a papier mache starship.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
11-11-2010, 03:00 AM
I am starting to come around on a few topics. I am not convinced any more that the idea that we can't recover hull fully in a short time would work in this game. It might indeed ruin gameplay for a lot of PvE and PvP players.
I am also starting to think that Startrek "canon" combat might be faster then some people think. Deep Space Nine might have ignored half the time that ships have shields, but it wasn't uncommon to hear significant losses in shield percentages when the Enterprise was hit by enemy vessels...

"Stickiness" of damage is a big topic - but it might not have to be implemented straightfoward with hull points.
Critical Hits.
Instead of inflicting extra damage, they can instead create a specific form of "damage" on the ship that can disable systems.
The Critical Hit Severity no longer means more damage, but it is a percentage modifier that describes how seriously damaged the component is.
A damaged system can be any system cooldown (exception: Crew). If the system is disabled, the critical hit severity determines the cooldown increase for the subsystem. The maximum increase cannot exceed 100 %. This increase applies for 20 seconds as base time.
The specific subsystem is randomly determined. We also group these cooldowns into categories which adds special effects. All these effects last as long as the critical hit itself.
Critical Hit on the same system or system group don't stack. Apply the worst penalties only.

Weapons Systems: Mines, Beam, Torpedo, Weapon Modification
If one of this systems is hit, there is a chance equal to the critical hit severity that a random weapon system is disabled.
Shield Systems: Deflector Field, Deflector Dish, Shields
If one of this system is hit, there is a chance equal to the critical hit severity that all shield regeneration and shield healing received is reduced by 25 % of its base rate.
Engine Systems: Attack Pattern, Batteries
If one of this system is hit, there is chance equal to the critical hit severity that the the ships speed and maneuverability drops by 25 %.
Auxillary Systems: Auxillary Power, Emitter, Hazard, Sensor Array, Sensor Probe, Tractor
If one of this system is hit, there is a chance equal to the critical hit severity that the ship loses 10 points of power on all power levels and is EPS Transfer Rate drops by 25 %.

Crew
The percentage of crew you have affects your crew system cooldown and the time required to repair the subsystem damages on your ship. Your Crew Efficiency Modifier is equal to 2 - (Alive Crew / Total Crew). Your Crew System cooldown is equal to (Base Cooldown) x (Crew Efficiency Modifier). (So if all are dead, it takes you twice as long). The time to repair damaged subsystems on a ship is equal to (Base Time) / (2 - Crew Efficiency Modifier) (so if you are at 100 % crew, it takes you only 7.5 seconds.)

Beam Target Subsystem Skills
Beam Target Subsystem now provides two effects. The intial disable proc chance and energy drain from the first beam you fire under this power, and for the remaining duration of the power, all critical hits you score are guaranteed to hit a system of your chosen category. This makes the Innate Subsystem targeting for Science Vessels worth a little more even without improving its cooldowns or rank.

Team Skills
Ideally, the team skills should be returned to their longer cooldowns but with a better duration for their buffs, and also grant resistance buffs again. It is possible we can achieve that by simply proportionally increasing the cooldown and the duration (e.g no change of cooldown categories required.)

Engineering Team
Increases the repair rate for all systems and innate hull regeneration by 25 %.
Provides a good hull heal
Provides moderate hull resistance. (20 to 40 %)
Provides engineering skill bonuses.
Restores a single disabled subsystem (not system cooldown, only full failures)

Science Team
Increases the repair rate for crew and the Auxillary and Shield systems by 25 %
Provides good shield heal.
Provides moderate shield damage reduction. (15 to 25 %)
Provides science skill bonuses.
Clears science debuffs.

Tactical Team
Tactical Team increase the repair rate for crew and the Weapon and Engine systems by 25 %.
Provides moderate crew heal
Provides crew resistance
Provides tactical skill bonuses
Provides maneuverability bonuses
Clears tactical debuffs and boarding parties (including Borg!)

Shields and Shield Power
Shield Power grants more shield resistance, say about Shield Power / 250. (So 50 % at 125)

Emergency Power
Provides a moderate shield damage reduction only for 5 seconds (mimicking the other temporary buffs from Emergency Powers). The major damage reduction is created by the energy levels itself. This allows all ships and not just cruisers to keep their shields strong.

Transfer Shield Strength
If we increase the cooldown of Science Team, we might want a more active shield heal. Turn this power into an equivalent to Auxillary to Structrucal Integrity Field, with a few caveats - it's a lower tier skill, so it should provide less healing. This might be best achieved by reducing its "up-time" and setting cooldowns and durations more closer to the current state of the team skills, and then selecting a shield heal and resistance bonus that "feels fair" for a lower rank skill. (Keeping min mind that generally speaking, shield damage reduction is stronger then hull resistance)

Extend Shields
Raise the range to 10 km. Increase the shield healing it provides.

Defense
Raise the Defense Cap from speed. Possibly make it dependent on ship type (so Escorts and BoPs get the best defense scores.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
11-11-2010, 03:31 AM
ships need destroyable parts, weapon hardpoints getting blown off with the loss or a section, lose your shield emmitters? kiss that shield facing goodbye.

the entire game needs a major revamp to play like previous sto games in space to feel right, combat should be far more strategic then it is now, if theyre going to keep instanced pvp then it needs to limit the ammounts of certain classes and what they fly types. no teams of 5 healers that bore the enemy to death.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
11-12-2010, 06:16 AM
I can say that I support persistant damage as a game mechanic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
11-12-2010, 06:37 AM
My general response is...this is not a Trek simulation, but a Trek game. If it were a simulation, I'd want it to be more like WoK, with slow maneuvers and pounding each other into debris...PotBS in space. But unfortunately ST is not consistent in representing what combat is like.

And I'm very suspicious of any major revisions to ship combat. (Which I don't think Cryptic has any stomach for, anyway.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
11-12-2010, 08:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naevius
My general response is...this is not a Trek simulation, but a Trek game. If it were a simulation, I'd want it to be more like WoK, with slow maneuvers and pounding each other into debris...PotBS in space. But unfortunately ST is not consistent in representing what combat is like.

And I'm very suspicious of any major revisions to ship combat. (Which I don't think Cryptic has any stomach for, anyway.)
i'd like instant effect powers to be retooled into effect over time.......
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
11-12-2010, 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naevius
My general response is...this is not a Trek simulation, but a Trek game. If it were a simulation, I'd want it to be more like WoK, with slow maneuvers and pounding each other into debris...PotBS in space. But unfortunately ST is not consistent in representing what combat is like.

And I'm very suspicious of any major revisions to ship combat. (Which I don't think Cryptic has any stomach for, anyway.)
Well, as far as I know they are changing it in Season 3.1 or 3.2.

I have to disagree, have you played a game called Star Trek: Bridge Commander? That was a simulator, and it wasn't slow-paced at all! Especially with the Kobyashi Maru Mod. Though Star Trek CAN be slow, much of the combat (especially in the later TNG-era) was more fast-paced.

And Roach, I think you would know that BOPS battle-cloak, use Evasive Maneuvers, head out of battle, and heal. That is what I was referencing to. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear, but you don't need an attitude!

Now, persistent damage would be cool. But I know that there are a lot of people who probably wouldn't like it, so having the option of turning it off would be nice.

I personally don't like the mechanic of greater speed=less damage. That isn't how physics work. It should be that the more speed you have, the greater chance of you dodging incoming fire. Remember the Defiant, it couldn't take as much damage as the Galaxy or Sovereign, but it didn't have to. Its speed and maneuverability was enough to dodge incoming fire. That would be cool as a mechanic. Not saying that the current one shouldn't be scrapped completely, but it shouldn't be the main one.

Another thing is ENVIRONMENTAL HAZARDS. I can't believe that I can put the entire bottom half of my engineering hull through an asteroid with shields down, and come out without a scratch. There are so many different ways that Cryptic can put that in, AND THEY ARE NOT USING IT.

Mustrum, I like your idea for the Beam Powers and subsystem targeting. It sounds like a really nice mix between the current MMO-style, and the BC realistic style. Are you a video game programmer or something?

Now, the armor idea is good too. Having to choose some really high-density armor that weighs you down considerably, or a lesser armor that keeps your stats the same would be cool.

Now, I though of this just last night. But it is a way of lower-tier vessels being used in higher levels, without the Canon Nazis going in a frenzy. Basically, you just scale down the enemies. So if you have a T1 Connie, you can use it against a Borg Cube in PVE, but in PVP, the enemies are not changed, and so it is useless. That would be a way for both sides to be happy. Older Tiers are still useful, but still letting the Canon Nazis use their more "advanced" ships in PVP without fear of the lesser vessels defeating them.

Now, as I said. The hull rank is how long you last, so while you still heal, you can't go from 30% to 100% in a couple seconds. Shields should basically be the ones you can get up and down fast. So their current version is fine (with a couple of tweaks.) I would like the ability to have a second layer of shielding on Cruisers, Battle Cruiser, and Carriers (the last would benefit the most.) Basically, a single shield will be the main, the secondary would be activated when the main is down. To balance it out, regeneration, cap, and resistance is all lowered (by a significant amount) and it is less efficient when compared to the main. This might also be a good way to add an "ablative armor" or "polarized armor" effect to the Sovvie, Defiant, and NX. I don't know exactly how it would work, but I think it would be nice.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
11-13-2010, 02:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
Mustrum, I like your idea for the Beam Powers and subsystem targeting. It sounds like a really nice mix between the current MMO-style, and the BC realistic style. Are you a video game programmer or something?
Now. I am a programmer (I prefer the term "Software Developer") and (like so many of us) an armchair designer.
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