Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 71
11-25-2010, 02:09 AM
@Stormshade -

Firstly - I'm really glad to see that kind of post from someone official. For the vast majority of people, those guidelines are absolutely perfect. After all, few of us are creative professionals, and only a small margin more are aspiring to be, so outside of that narrow band, feedback can be... painful, especially if in-artfully worded.

That said...

What if I - the author of said mission - were to specifically create a thread for, and ask for, critiques on a given mission? I mean obviously I still don't want someone flaming me; flaming is out of bounds on the forum anyway; but if I specifically say "I want your honest opinion, not to mention if you'd kindly let me know of any spelling errors or whatnot", would I be able to do that?

It's not that in-game feedback is necessarily bad, but from my experiences doing missions for the Architect system in COH, I found my most valuable feedback tended to come via the forums. The other players there were (with exceptions of course) generally mature and willing to actually discuss things they liked, didn't like - and even ask questions about what I intended with particular elements. Not to mention it was just plain immensely useful to have all my feedback in one thread, so I could alt-tab back and forth between the thread and working on the mission.

It was also valuable for me in that - when you get people talking to each other about your work, you can see a bit better where people are coming from, why they're saying what they're saying, and that helps me weight opinions so that I'm not say... trying to jump through hoops to please someone who's 180 degrees from my target demographic.

I guess to sum up the entire post into a sentence -

If the author asks for people to pass along that kind of info in a forum thread devoted to said episode, can they do it without getting into trouble?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 72
11-25-2010, 02:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
Remember, it's hard to be a creative person. When you create something, you put something of yourself into it. For alot of people, telling them you don't like what they drew/wrote/painted/sang is kind of like saying that you don't like them.
People confuse the art for the artist - just as artists confused criticism of their work for criticism of their person.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 73
11-25-2010, 03:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by WarpVis View Post
I would hope that they create a seperate forum for posting notices as well as critiques on missions.
This.

/10char
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 74
11-25-2010, 04:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Streakfury View Post
This.

/10char
Maybe I am a glass is half empty kind of person and havent seen any body mention this but personaly i am not crazy about the thought of the foundry and i am a person that has some experiance with ugc, but has any body given the thought to this is cryptics way of useing us to do there job at putting out new content and that frees them up to work on there new game there doing, and we are doing there job for free at putting out new content, i hope i am wrong on this and i guess time will tell but just think about it, when epople say something about new content they just say well look at all the new mission out there in the foundry, hhhmmmm makes a person think. Well hopefully i am wrong.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 75
11-25-2010, 04:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainMerzan
Maybe I am a glass is half empty kind of person...
Maybe.

I can see what you mean, but just because players can make their own missions, that doesn't mean the devs aren't going to bother any more. It was my understanding that UGC missions will be completely separate from 'official' developer-made missions, and it's not a case of "doing their work for them", but it gives us an opportunity to create the missions we'd all like to see.

If the spam problem can be controlled, I personally think that the Foundry is nothing but a good thing for STO. I can't wait.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 76
11-25-2010, 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainMerzan
Maybe I am a glass is half empty kind of person and havent seen any body mention this but personaly i am not crazy about the thought of the foundry and i am a person that has some experiance with ugc, but has any body given the thought to this is cryptics way of useing us to do there job at putting out new content and that frees them up to work on there new game there doing, and we are doing there job for free at putting out new content, i hope i am wrong on this and i guess time will tell but just think about it, when epople say something about new content they just say well look at all the new mission out there in the foundry, hhhmmmm makes a person think. Well hopefully i am wrong.
You are not the first one to ask this question, but... does it really matter?

If Crypti wants to screw us over, there are a myriad ways of them to do it. If they do so, vote with your Dollar.

I don't think they want to screw us over. I think UGC is a great way to create greater investment of players in the game, allowing them to "live out" there own fantasies and creativity more then any other game. Whether Cryptic produces great content itself or not doesn't change that. They could create the best stories I have ever played, and it would still not be me creating something awesome or the story I always imagined in my head. There is a difference between consuming and creating content, and no matter how much content you can consume, it is not the same as creating. The flip side is true, too - no matter how much content you create, it is not the same as consumingt he content created by others (most importantly possibly Cryptic).

Some people prefer to consume - some prefer to create. Some like both equally. UGC has the potential to appeal to both.

If UGC content is actually good, it might not even matter whether Cryptic produces content on its own. What matters is that your needs are satisfied. You then pay your subscription for bugfixes, new UGC features and server cost. (All that is not stuff you can cover up with just having UGC. No matter how brilliant my mission is, it won't fix any bugs.)

Also, it doesn't look as if Cryptic is planning to get out of the "content-creation" business. The Weekly episodes are still a go. There is talk of a new KDF Fleet Action to destroy Earth Space Dock.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 77
11-25-2010, 06:39 AM
No amount of moderation will stop the "under the table" tactics that will be employed for certain people to get a good ratings or try to tumble others. Since Cryptic (and CBS) will have final words on those missions going forward and public, I do not see this being a big problem. The spam one way or another will be present, but good authors will have better manners and common sense that to try and **** you off, earning an one way trip to ignore land.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 78
11-29-2010, 02:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeathenStorm View Post
What about the 'Report as Inappropriate' option that reviewers will get? Will that feedback be anonymous?
Of course. This will be anonymous just as reporting a player for inappropriate behavior is anonymous. We'll still know who did it, but other users will not be able to see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cavilier210 View Post
Wheatons law?
I know it was explained by another helpful poster. It bears repeating though.

Don't be a jerk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kasensal
What about people posting threads specifically asking for feedback?

What about people posting threads where people can submit their missions for review?

If you limit these two things, your UGC community will be dead in the water.

I cannot stress what a shortsighted move this is. The success of the Foundry will be dependent on the community that is involved with it, sharing missions and ideas, trading reviews and feedback, collaborating, running contests, and helping each other improve. You don't have enough faith in the creative side of this community to build something great.

If you prevent these kinds of threads, this UGC will go underutilized because you were afraid that there was CHANCE that people would be uncivil... nay that you COUNTED on us to be uncivilized and unconstructive.

This lack of faith is us is not encouraging, and not giving us the chance is an insult, a slap in the face.
I'm not preventing these kinds of threads at all. I am asking that people show respect for the time and effort that Foundry Users will be putting in to their work.

This means, quite simply, that I don't want to see posts leaving feedback that simply says, "Your mission sucks. Learn to spell."

I don't care if it says those exact words, or if it's implied by a laundry list of complaints. Feedback given needs to be respectful. Publicly denouncing someone's work, asked for or not, is not cool.

If you have negative feedback, leave it in a positive manner.

"Your mob placement could use a little help, PM me if you'd like more info," followed by a PM that says, "You need to space out your encounters a little more. They're too close and it's too easy for a player to be overwhelmed at zone in by mob aggro." is about 10 times less harsh than this:

"Your mission is nothing more than a way for you to grief unsuspecting players looking for a good mission, and you should be banned from creating new projects until you learn to spread out your encounters."

They both offer feedback regarding the same issue. They both identify a problem, and even offer assistance. One of them is rude, the other is not.

This is what I'm making very clear right now. You can leave negative feedback, and do so in a way that does not publicly insult the author.

This is what needs to happen. It needs to happen to encourage people to use the tools, and to continue using them.

Thanks,

Stormshade
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 79
11-29-2010, 02:22 PM
I'm eager to try anyone's mission and rate it appropriately..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 80
11-29-2010, 02:31 PM
Anyone who played the game Spore when the Galaxy Adventure came out and gave players the ability to create missions will know that it is inevitable for there to be tons of threads of people asking for feedback and ratings of their missions. It will be a nice change of pace on the forums from people asking/demanding that the Devs change aspects of the game to people getting constructive criticism on their own work! :p
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