Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 131
11-26-2010, 04:27 PM
Quote:
Tier 1: All ships designed prior to 2300. (NX, TOS Connie, Miranda, Connie Refit, Excelsior, etc.)
Tier 2: All ships designed between 2300 and 2360: (Galaxy, Nebula, Ambassador, etc.)
Tier 3: 2360's designs: (Defiant, Akira, etc.)
Tier 4: 2370's to 2400 designs: (Sovereign, Intrepid, Nova, Sabre, Olympic, etc.)
Tier 5: Cryptic Designs only.
Would love to see this! Though I'd split out the 2300-2330 and 2330-2360 periods, and merge the Cryptic and 2370-2400 into one tier.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 132
11-26-2010, 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walshicus
Would love to see this!
So you accept that an Excalibur should beat the tar out of the Galaxy Class.

So you accept that the Aurora should whip the Nebula.

So you aceept that the Avenger beats the Sovereign.

So you accept that the Horizon beats the Luna.

So you accept that a Rapier beats a Defiant and a Prometheus.

Just want to be clear here, that you are in favor of all fan favorite classes being pushed down to worthless status.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 133
11-26-2010, 04:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walshicus
Would love to see this! Though I'd split out the 2300-2330 and 2330-2360 periods, and merge the Cryptic and 2370-2400 into one tier.
I actually created a 3 Tier ship structure in another thread.

T1 was any pre-TNG era ship. These ships would be used from Ensign to Lieutenant and would fight equivalent foes: Orion pirates, BoP infiltrators, etc. These ships are primarily home guard.

T2 was TNG era ships. These ships would be used from Lt. Cmdr to Captain. These ships are used for exploration and system security.

T3 was completely new 25th century ships. These ships would be used from Commodore to Admiral. These ships are used for long-range exploraton and major military engagements, depending on ship class.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 134
11-26-2010, 04:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMattSchwab
That way, this game can properly reflect how ineffective "old cruddy ships" are in 2409.

When fans of ships like the Galaxy, Nebula, Intrepid, Excelsior and Defiant can accept their favorite ships being relegated to worthlessness, then the rest of us ENT, TOS and TMP fans will as well.
It was Cryptic's choice to set the game in the 25th century, 30 years after Nemesis, not mine.

If I can accept that Galaxy can be the the power-house ship in 2364, be replaced by the Defiant as the power-house ship in 2371, and then be replaced again by the Sovereign in 2373 I don't see how it's such a stretch to think some other ships would be the power-house ships by 2409.

If CBS made a new ST series set in 2409 would the fans be ticked-off by the fact that the Sovereign wasn't the main ship of the series, or would they just accept a new Enterprise class as the normal progression they've seen in 5 series and 11 movies? I think they'd see it as a logical progression; and that's the same progression Cryptic was shooting for when it chose the 25th century as its time period.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 135
11-26-2010, 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic_One View Post
It was Cryptic's choice to set the game in the 25th century, 30 years after Nemesis, not mine.

If I can accept that Galaxy can be the the power-house ship in 2364, be replaces by the Defiant as the power-house ship in 2371, and then be replaces again by the Sovereign in 2375 I don't see how it's such a stretch to think some other ships would be the power-house ships by 2409.

If CBS made a new ST series set in 2409 would the fans be ticked-off by the fact that the Sovereign wasn't the main ship of the series, or would they just accept a new Enterprise class as the normal progression they've seen in 5 series and 11 movies? I think they'd see it as a logical progression; and that's the same progression Cryptic was shooting for when it chose the 25th century as its time period.
Well, then all those fan favorite ships (Galaxy, Defiant, Intrepid, etc.) need to be relegated to the lower tiers where they belong, so the upper Tiers can have the 2409 ships. Regardless of size.

The Excelsior, Nebula and Galaxy don't belong at Tier 5. The Defiant is debateable. Intrepid, Nova, Akira and Sabre are newer than the Galaxy and Nebula, so they need to be pushed up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 136
11-26-2010, 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMattSchwab
Thus far, the "yaysayers" have been more about compromise. I will grant you that there are extremists that are dead set on a T5 TOS Connie or NX. But there are alot of moderates in this debate as well. But thus far, I have yet to see a moderate on the NO side of this equation.
Then you've been very selective with your reading. I and several other players like me have continually proposed stuff like limited general upgrades for all ships that would extend their lifespan by one or two tiers whilst still making them less efficient than contemporary designs of the same tier. And that's just one example amongst many.

As has been pointed out, the TOS-Connie or the NX being in the game at all on the lowest tier is already a compromise between "no we don't want this" and "gief T5 plx", is it not? And then we have the fact that you can upgrade these ships with MkXI gear, and we know that there are people out there hunting Borg in Omega Leonis with one of these vessels, so obviously it is possible.

This really is a neverending discussion. Cryptic, give us client-side "era switches" pls. That's the only solution as neither side will shut up about this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMattSchwab
Age Specific Tiers
Tier 1: All ships designed prior to 2300. (NX, TOS Connie, Miranda, Connie Refit, Excelsior, etc.)
Tier 2: All ships designed between 2300 and 2360: (Galaxy, Nebula, Ambassador, etc.)
Tier 3: 2360's designs: (Defiant, Akira, etc.)
Tier 4: 2370's to 2400 designs: (Sovereign, Intrepid, Nova, Sabre, Olympic, etc.)
Tier 5: Cryptic Designs only.
I thought about this as well, though I would not only take age into account but also efficiency and size. A Nova might be more advanced, but no way would she beat a Galaxy. Similarly, an Excelsior would have no problems with handling a Connie or an NX.

Whilst this has nothing to do with the issue at hand, I always thought that Tier 1 should be Miranda/Constitution/Oberth, as this is simply a classic trio representing all the available careers of STO. As a welcome side-effect, this would make the Excalibur (which is how a "T5 Connie" would really look like, were Starfleet to update the core design to contemporary engineering...) actually seem more advanced than her predecessor rather than putting her in the same tier.
I'd then move the Centaur to T2, Saber to T3... TOS-Connie and NX and whatever other ships you want to include from TOS or ENT can stay in T1 as "vanity ships".

But that's just me. :p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 137
11-26-2010, 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMattSchwab
Well, then all those fan favorite ships (Galaxy, Defiant, Intrepid, etc.) need to be relegated to the lower tiers where they belong, so the upper Tiers can have the 2409 ships. Regardless of size.

The Excelsior, Nebula and Galaxy don't belong at Tier 5. The Defiant is debateable. Intrepid, Nova, Akira and Sabre are newer than the Galaxy and Nebula, so they need to be pushed up.
Okay, let's try this.

Take a coast guard speed boat built last year, put it next to a coast guard cutter made five years ago. The speed boat might be faster but won't be nearly as powerful.

Now take the equivalent of that cutter from 30 or so years ago and put it next to the same speed boat. The speed boat will likely outperform the older cutter in pretty much every way except maybe hull strength.

Your arguments are devolving into childish table-turning. You need to some up with something more intelligent if you want to look like anything less than a whiny child.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 138
11-26-2010, 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Then you've been very selective with your reading. I and several other players like me have continually proposed stuff like limited general upgrades for all ships that would extend their lifespan by one or two tiers whilst still making them less efficient than contemporary designs of the same tier. And that's just one example amongst many.

As has been pointed out, the TOS-Connie or the NX being in the game at all on the lowest tier is already a compromise between "no we don't want this" and "gief T5 plx", is it not? And then we have the fact that you can upgrade these ships with MkXI gear, and we know that there are people out there hunting Borg in Omega Leonis with one of these vessels, so obviously it is possible.

This really is a neverending discussion. Cryptic, give us client-side "era switches" pls. That's the only solution as neither side will shut up about this.
And yet, when proposals are put forth as I have done, with a B'Rel style refit for Tier 2 ships, those proposals get naysayed into oblivion, because of the TOS Connie and NX, which aren't even T2 ships!

If it works for the B'Rel, it can certainly work for the Nova, Sabre and Excalibur, which are plenty modern, and wouldn't be out of place fighting alongside Sovereigns, Avengers, Lunas and the like. That's not to say, these B'Rel style refits should be beating Sovereigns, Avengers and Lunas mano a mano, but they are not out of place alongside their larger sister ships.

But the naysayers won't even bend on that, because they link the Tier 2 ships automatically with the TOS Connie and the NX.

Quote:
Whilst this has nothing to do with the issue at hand, I always thought that Tier 1 should be Miranda/Constitution/Oberth, as this is simply a classic trio representing all the available careers of STO. As a welcome side-effect, this would make the Excalibur (which is how a "T5 Connie" would really look like, were Starfleet to update the core design to contemporary engineering...) actually seem more advanced than her predecessor rather than putting her in the same tier.
I'd then move the Centaur to T2, Saber to T3... TOS-Connie and NX and whatever other ships you want to include from TOS or ENT can stay in T1 as "vanity ships".

But that's just me. :p
I could totally get behind that, if the T2 ships were allowed to move up to T5 in a reasonable manner. If the Excalibur is the only way we can get the classic TOS style at Tier 5, I could get behind that.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 139
11-26-2010, 05:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexsam View Post
Okay, let's try this.

Take a coast guard speed boat built last year, put it next to a coast guard cutter made five years ago. The speed boat might be faster but won't be nearly as powerful.

Now take the equivalent of that cutter from 30 or so years ago and put it next to the same speed boat. The speed boat will likely outperform the older cutter in pretty much every way except maybe hull strength.

Your arguments are devolving into childish table-turning. You need to some up with something more intelligent if you want to look like anything less than a whiny child.
No, it's not childish table turning.

It's backed up by canon.

We saw the Galaxy get it's aft handed to it on two seperate occasions, by much smaller ships. The Enterprise-D got taken down by a Bird of Prey. The Odyssey succumbed to a Jem'Hadar Attack Craft, which is smaller than a Defiant.

And let's talk about the Defiant. The Sabre is equal size and age, yet it's trapped in Tier 2, while the Defiant has Tier 4 and Tier 5 versions? Oh, and the Akira is much larger and newer than the Defiant, yet the Defiant is more powerful? And what about the Prometheus? Why is the Defiant equal to the Prometheus, when the Prometheus is over double the size as a Defiant, has the power of 3 starships (MVAM) and armaments that would make a Soveriegn blush?

So there is validity in my argument. If you want to limit ships based on age and size, then it needs to be applied equally across the board.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 140
11-26-2010, 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptMattSchwab
No, it's not childish table turning.

It's backed up by canon.

We saw the Galaxy get it's aft handed to it on two seperate occasions, by much smaller ships. The Enterprise-D got taken down by a Bird of Prey. The Odyssey succumbed to a Jem'Hadar Attack Craft, which is smaller than a Defiant.

And let's talk about the Defiant. The Sabre is equal size and age, yet it's trapped in Tier 2, while the Defiant has Tier 4 and Tier 5 versions? Oh, and the Akira is much larger and newer than the Defiant, yet the Defiant is more powerful? And what about the Prometheus? Why is the Defiant equal to the Prometheus, when the Prometheus is over double the size as a Defiant, has the power of 3 starships (MVAM) and armaments that would make a Soveriegn blush?

So there is validity in my argument. If you want to limit ships based on age and size, then it needs to be applied equally across the board.
The Enterprise-D was destroyed not by being inferior, but by espionage. A Mk XII torpedo will do the same damage fried from a B'Rel that it will from a Hegh'Ta. So you picked a terrible example there.

Never heard of the Odyssey, is that from DS9 or is it from some crappy soft canon book?

Also, the Prometheus has no MVAM at the moment in STO, and even then, I doubt its systems could handle the sheer output of three warp cores running wide open. It'd fry itself.
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