Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 21
12-02-2010, 04:10 AM
From my many missions as a Starfleet officer, as I have encountered many Klingons and Klingon ships, bases, and holdings.. I have determined one important thing.

There is apparently no honour in sweeping up.

I have no idea who in their culture thinks designing new warships is glorious and honourable.. clearly there's not a lot of them, hence the limited variance in Klingon starship designs.. in fact one only need look at their clothing and hairstyles to note that there is perhaps little glory and honour in being a Tailor or Barber.

I often find myself wondering if the Klingon obsession with Honour and Glory, might not be some relatively new development in their post-augment culture.. perhaps as a direct result of trying to "reclaim their glorious Klingon spirit" that was somehow tarnished or lost during their augment years. Perhaps now the obsession has taken full grip of their culture, and all else suffers in their mad dash to regain enough honour to reach Sto-vo-kor. That would certainly explain why Klingon technology seems to be in a ever declining state of decay, compared to the glory days of the empire's technology, when even the Romulans adopted their ship designs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 22
12-02-2010, 04:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PodSix
From my many missions as a Starfleet officer, as I have encountered many Klingons and Klingon ships, bases, and holdings.. I have determined one important thing.

There is apparently no honour in sweeping up.

I have no idea who in their culture thinks designing new warships is glorious and honourable.. clearly there's not a lot of them, hence the limited variance in Klingon starship designs.. in fact one only need look at their clothing and hairstyles to note that there is perhaps little glory and honour in being a Tailor or Barber.

I often find myself wondering if the Klingon obsession with Honour and Glory, might not be some relatively new development in their post-augment culture.. perhaps as a direct result of trying to "reclaim their glorious Klingon spirit" that was somehow tarnished or lost during their augment years. Perhaps now the obsession has taken full grip of their culture, and all else suffers in their mad dash to regain enough honour to reach Sto-vo-kor. That would certainly explain why Klingon technology seems to be in a ever declining state of decay, compared to the glory days of the empire's technology, when even the Romulans adopted their ship designs.
As I tried to explain in another thread, the real reason for the outdatedness (is this a real word?) of some aspects of Klingon ship design is caused by the lack of budget allocated to them by the makers of Star Trek.
For example the Klingons continue to use the same uniforms they got in Star Trek 1 (1978/79) and the same weapons and tricorders they got in Star Trek 3 (1984)

http://www.racprops.com/issue7/this_...d%20pistol.jpg

http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/3/..._tricorder.jpg

the only change came about with the appearance of Star Trek 5 where they received the unusually long-barreled version that later appeared in TNG "A Matter of Honour", but during late TNG and DS9 they once again used another version, the so-called "Beak-Nose Disruptor"

http://www.xscapesprops.com/star%20t...tor_detail.jpg

which was an updated version of the ST3 incarnation made for Star Trek 6.
However the Rifle version was not updated for that movie with a "Beak nose" and therefore continued to be used in DS9 episodes like "Shakaar" and "Honour among Thieves" in its Star Trek 3 incarnation.

http://media.photobucket.com/image/k...torRifleRS.jpg

So the appearent stagnation of Klingon equipment is due to budget, but not KDF budget but Star Trek budget.

The unclean appearance of Klingon ships comes from TNG and was (basically retroactvely) included in "Enterprise" as well probably because Berman once said he did not care about TOS and would therefore use TNG as a basis for "Enterprise"...

Oh and you forget that Martok said in "Once more unto the Breach" that he had served as a civilian worker ona Klingon ship fefore becoming a soldier, cleaning up the mess hall.
So they actually do clean up.:p
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 23
12-02-2010, 05:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
As I tried to explain in another thread, the real reason ...
Obviously. But I'm not really looking for "studio" explanations. Obviously the Romulans adopted the Klingon starship designs because the model for the Romulan ship was destroyed in a warehouse fire at NBC studios.

But in the years since, we've had the Klingon lack of bumpy foreheads in TOS explained away, we've had the Romulans using the Klingon ships explained away.. and we've had a lot of "in story" explanations for various aspects of the shows that were clearly simple mistakes of continuity, and the effects of low budgets. (the TWOK enlisted uniforms were the TMP uniforms, re-cut and dyed tan and red).

The utterly disgusting state of a hundred years of grime and soot on nearly every Klingon ship or station makes one wonder though. what is the "in story" explanation for all this dirt and decay? All the bad lighting and aging ships?

I think that there is a potential that in the post-augment era of the Klingon empire, science and engineering is becoming something of a lost art, as the society as a whole seems to be embracing it's Warrior Heritage" to the point of absurdity. (Clearly they hold nothing but disdain for accounting and finance - DS9, House of Quark). While they may have once traded ship designs for Romulan cloaking technology.. (in-story explanation).. I wonder why the Romulans thought (in-story) that the Klingon ships were so superior.

Clearly the Romulans see some value in keeping a tidy workspace, and flying new and more stylish ships, while wearing snazzy uniforms (with very square shoulders). I wonder why the Klingons seem to have "peaked".

Maybe it's true, what the Starfleet Commander in Chief (Bill) said in Star Trek 6.. "The Klingon Empire has roughly 50 years of life left to it".. perhaps the empire is crumbling, and perhaps HAS BEEN crumbling to some extent all through the TNG++ era. The Federation peace treaty might have delayed the demise of the empire, but perhaps now all that is left for the Klingon people, is one last desperate stab at an honourable death in glorious combat.

Of course the game shows us that the Klingon empire has surged, to conquer the Orions, Naussicans and Gorn.. but is the empire literally running it's ships and technology to death, with a lack of proper maintenance? The klingon empire locations in STO surely seem to indicate that this may be the case.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 24
12-02-2010, 06:24 AM
Before I make another answer as wall of text-style as the last one, I'd like to know whether you'll accept soft-canon information, like novel series that explain a lot of those things like the low lighting.

As for those 50 years in ST6, they were connected to the expected 50 years until the oxygen supply of Qo'nos was depleted.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 25
12-02-2010, 06:38 AM
Have you never heard the phrase . " A cluttered work area is the sign of a brilliant mind." ?

The KDF comes across as the dark, dirty villianous warriors in the movies and TV shows becuase they where written that way and not much else was ever tweaked in thier appearances to change this as the KDF grew more popular among the fans over the years.

Offsite info from the RPG game and other sources clearly portray the KDF as a highly militaristic race, but not a race of filth covered idiots hoping for heaven. Here is a good example of KDF lifestyle and socila rankings.

Klingon society resembles that of Earth's ancient, Northern European medieval culture. Those born into a ruling family - either a great or minor House - hold more status than that of a commoner. Unlike class systems on other worlds, however, the ability to fight and a willingness to die provides the keys to upward mobility. The commoner who proves himself capable in war could join a House’s army, then through bravery and skill go on to found his own House - as General Martok proves. A coward or scoundrel, however, will find himself tumbling down the social ladder. The worst receive discommendation - banishment by society.

Klingon society generally recognizes four social classes:

Ha'Dlbah: At the bottom of the social order, these are the inhabitants of planets conquered by the Empire. They are expected to serve and support the Empire, by paying taxes and supplying goods and services. Unlike the Romulans, Klingons allow their subjects to keep their own culture, traditions, and political systems, so long as they don't cause trouble. They find it easier to leave the existing social order in place, but make it accountable to Klingon authority. Although not considered property, Ha'Dlbah have no standing in Klingon society. They must obtain permission to move from their local lord or regional governor. They may not own weapons, nor serve in the military. They may not bring grievances against a Klingon, and crimes against Klingons are punished severely. Their lands can be seized without compensation, nor do they enjoy protections against unreasonable search and seizure. Ha'Dlbah who behave, however, have little to fear, and can even gain a measure of prominence. They can not, however, climb the Klingon social ladder. This term means, literally, "dog, cur, inferior person," and Klingons consider it a grave insult.
vumwl': These are the accountants, weapon-smiths, nursemaids, and thousands of other second-rate professions needed to keep society functioning. Generally, these Klingons were refused induction into a House's army, because they lacked the mettle, though many simply chose to follow in the family business. Without belonging to a House, they have little opportunity to fight, and thus earn fame or respect. They have no songs to sing nor deeds to celebrate. They are still Klingons, however, and expected to act with honor. They have the right to protect their good name, and can seek redress under Kahless' code. They enjoy freedom of movement, as well as protection under Klingon law - they may bring complaints against other Klingons, no matter their rank, and officials must have reason to enter a Klingon home. Their property may be seized, but with just cause and due process.
Suvwl': Those who intend to walk the warrior's path seek admission in the military of a particular House. This rank is not hereditary, though kinship with a loyal warrior counts in the applicant's favor. Thousands, sometimes millions, of Klingons seek to enlist in a House and claim association with it. Without being formally adopted, however, warriors do not enjoy the same power or privileges as the nobility; they are not truly "of the House." They serve as retainers, forming much of the household. In return, membership gives warriors something to belong to, and a greater purpose. They fight in the House's name, and therefore have many chances to gain honor. When they die, their spirits journey to Sto-Vo-Kor, and the House celebrates their deeds at Ty'gokor. Legally, a warrior's word carries more weight in disputes, and they receive preferential treatment.
chuQun: These are the nobility, and the only true members of the House. They make up a small percentage of those who live and fight under a particular lord's standard. Standing at the top of the social order, they receive their authority by virtue of the lands they control and the army at their command. Presumed to be the most honorable, the nobility enjoys the most power and privileges in society.


a brief glimpse at thier scientific history (boosted by the H'urq invasion and acquisistion of thier warp technology):
THE AGE OF SCIENTIFIC ACQUISITION

After the city-state age, Klingon scientific knowledge began to grow at a rapid pace. Part of this rapidity in growth stems from the philosophic-theological beliefs of Klingon culture. Their philosophy of the honor to be gained in taking knowledge from Durgath, coupled with the expansionist and aggressive Klingon attitude led to the exploration of the practical sciences with no religious notions to overcome.
Of the strongest early clans, the clan of Katook had the greatest and fastest development of science. K'tar Katook and his successor K'shen both supported the notion that children who were not strong physically, and who would normally have been killed, might be mentally strong and useful in the wresting of scientific knowledge from K'nash'akar. All theld children were given until the age of seven to show acuity at some field. If they did not, they were considered kuve despite their lineage. They were sent to the Year Games as line soldiers for the other theld-youth to command in their battles. If they survived the Year Games, they would be assigned some menial task to perform for the state. This was before the discovery of other life forms and thus, before the concept that Klingon and kuve were incompatible. By the time other life forms were discovered, educational practices had advanced so that every Klingon was able to learn some useful aspect, even if it was only loading torpedo bays on a warship.
K'shen set up the first state run schools. Those theld-youth who exhibited an aptitude for strategy and leadership were sent to the school of K'tali'ket, a military academy, while those with talent in the sciences (including theory, mechanics, etc.) were sent to K'somi'ket.
Many wars developed between the various clans over the sciences. The largest of these wars was the nIvveS in which K'shen and other descendants of Kapek's Kamorh'dag nation defended their scientific knowledge against K'akant and other nations, which collectively called themselves the Gevish'rae. This was the beginning of the Kamorh'dag/Gevish'rae rivalry of which traces can still be seen today (Faces of Fire).
This war, which was filled with hate and familial conflict unlike that seen on many other planets, produced two things useful to the Klingon future. It provided unity between the various clans according to their Kamorh'dag/Gevish'rae loyalties and it produced the thoughts of Kang the Seer. Both of these developments were essential in the future unification of Klinzai.


The shows and movies have portrayed the KDF as brutal animals with little need for the civility's of man, but the fans have breathed life into the KDF and given it the history and culture that was denied them in the genre by the producers of the shows and movies.
This culture is easily recognizable in thier sciences, medicine and star ship applications. By thier very design, Klingons have redundant systems in thier physology to help them survive wounds and illness that would kill a human, 8 chambered hearts, extra liver and spleens, etc. This psychology is also used in thier ship designs so as to have redundant back-ups for destroyed systems and even in thier medical skills and abilities. In the KDF there is no need for a KDF antiseptic or firstaid, due to this natural redundacy and this may lead to why things look so dirty, dark and dingy in the genre. There is no need for neat and tidy when you don't suffer from common filth born illnesses and the KDF society reflects this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 26
12-02-2010, 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PodSix
That would certainly explain why Klingon technology seems to be in a ever declining state of decay, compared to the glory days of the empire's technology, when even the Romulans adopted their ship designs.
It's not exactly a state of decay. They continue to build new ships and design new classes, as can be seen by TNG's Vor'cha or DS9's Negh'var. It's just that, unlike Starfleet, they never actually retire their ships but continue to fly them until they fall apart. This is due to the constant lack of resources the Klingon Empire is subjected to. As Mara said in "Day of the Dove": The home systems are poor, so the Klingons must press ever outward and conquer new resources. An eternal war that has long since come to feed itself in a vicious cycle of victory -> new resources -> more ships -> war -> victory -> new resources -> more ships -> war ...
This situation has only grown worse since the days of Praxis, the Klingon moon that was a key part of the Empire's energy supply, whose cataclysmic explosion triggered a crisis that resulted in both numerous exploration fleets being sent our to scout new worlds to conquer as well as peace talks with the Federation.

This goes not only for the ships, but also the basic designs as well: hard canon has shown at least three different classes all using the same Bird-of-Prey shape. It is my theory that the shortage of resources also affects the very way Klingon ships are constructed. The Klingon Empire does not employ replicators in the same excessive capacity as the Federation, instead using more traditional means of fabrication. Shipyards and assembly lines are built in a way that is specialized on one specific hull, and reconfiguring them to build a new hull design would likely be considered a waste of resources - not to mention the ongoing need for spare parts, many of whom would not be compatible between the different shapes.

As for the interiors, and in addition to what Roach pointed out, it should not be forgotten that the rusty and dirty colours might well be the natural hue of the metal used in construction. No reason to paint it - although it might be just as likely that Klingons simply like this colour more than Starfleet's greyish-blueish interiors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PodSix
we've had the Klingon lack of bumpy foreheads in TOS explained away [...]
And badly, if I may add. I would have preferred the explanation given in one of the old P&P books. Or just them ignoring it at all because it was obviously due to off-screen reasons, like so many other things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PodSix
Of course the game shows us that the Klingon empire has surged, to conquer the Orions, Naussicans and Gorn..
Only the Gorn, actually, and to a lesser extent the Nausicaans as they forced them to switch sides. The Orion forged an alliance with the Klingon Empire and was never at war with it.
They did beat the Romulans to dust in AGT's alternate future though, which is quite a feat as well. Of course, would the planned "Final Frontier" series have been greenlighted, it would have been the other way around, but it still shows they woud have had the potential.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 27
12-02-2010, 04:02 PM
The Klingon ship yards seem to follow the old axiom: If it ain't broke don't fix it. The Bird of Prey works.

Besides, the power of a blade is not in the metal, but in the warrior who holds it. By this philosophy, if the BoP is failing, it's because it's not being used properly. The Klingons are not fools though, they know full well that the most skilled warrior can not strike hard if his blade is dull. Also, a sword made of copper is worth little against a shield made of steel....and a disruptor that can't harm an opponent's shields should be replaced with one that can.


The Empire has also been shown to be somewhat resource poor, and they are likely locked in a cycle of conquering to gain resources. It's very similar to one of the conditions that afflicted ancient Rome; there was a time when their primary source of income was conquest, so when they started to run out of wealthy neighbors, they couldn't afford the empire they had built.

The Klingon Empire though benefits from having other sources of income, so their economic future is far more secure, if not as vibrant as that of the Federation.


The Klingon culture can also be compared very closely to Feudal Japan, which was very much a warrior culture. Society revolved around the Samurai, but they were a minority, far outnumbered by the various farmers, merchants, artists, and laborers. The Samurai did not grow his own food, nor forge his own sword or weave his own clothes....and the smart ones would honor those who did these things. Of course like all large groups of people, not all of them were smart. lol
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 28
12-03-2010, 06:32 AM
Since the others already beat me to several things I would have written I'd only like to add at this point that the reason for the low lighting conditions on Klingon ships is the simple fact that they are more sensitive to light than humans and most other humaniods, which allows them to see perfectly in lighting that is poor by human(oid) standards.
As a result the lighting in their rooms is as "normal" or "bright" to them as the lighting we see on Starfllet ships is "normal" or "bright" for humans and most other humaniods.
When you watch the DS9 episode "The Wire", you'll find this is something Klingons seem to have in common with Cardassians.

As for the "smell" issue in several episodes:
The irony of the matter is that Klingons have a far better sense of smell and taste than most humanoids, but the result is not the same as with Vulcans who seem to consider any kind of smell uncomfortable.
Instead Klingons rather enjoy their own natural musk and find the musk of other Klingons (particularly members of their preferred gender) to be appealing.
So they're not actually dirty, but do not use any kind of perfume to cover their own smell.
Some humans like Matthew McConaughey seem to have this quirk as well.
What Klingons do have in common with Vulcans is the fact that they like well-spiced food and feel that humans have a tendency to cook the taste out of theirs.
This explains why Kurn described the "dead bird" in "Sins of the Father" as "bland".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 29
12-03-2010, 07:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
As a result the lighting in their rooms is as "normal" or "bright" to them as the lighting we see on Starfllet ships is "normal" or "bright" for humans and most other humaniods.
I also recall that their vision was more in the red spectrum than the blue, which is probably connected to the brighness issue. Not sure if this was soft or hard canon, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Instead Klingons rather enjoy their own natural musk and find the musk of other Klingons (particularly members of their preferred gender) to be appealing.
I remember one Klingon in DS9 (was it Kurn?) remarking that he did not understand how the Humans could "dull their senses" by covering up all the different smells. *nods*
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 30
12-03-2010, 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I also recall that their vision was more in the red spectrum than the blue, which is probably connected to the brighness issue. Not sure if this was soft or hard canon, though.
I do have a similar though creeping about in the back of my mind but since I was not entiely sure I decided to only post what I was sure of.
And there is a line in "Diplomatic Implausibility", the first appearance of the IKS Gorkon where Beverly considers it medically and rationally logical that lighting on a Klingon ship would be comparatively low because of Klingon higher sensitivity to light but nontheless she found the ship to be "dark".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I remember one Klingon in DS9 (was it Kurn?) remarking that he did not understand how the Humans could "dull their senses" by covering up all the different smells. *nods*
I don't really remember that part, but it's very likely.
In any case several of the books I've read that involve the Klingon perspective show that they seem to be far more aware of the smells of other Klingons than humans would be of other humans' and that they seem to find other Klingons attractive based as much on their visual as well as their olfactory appearance.
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