Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Be prepared for a wall of text, but I will provide a short version at the start. And yes, I spent too much time on the forums and not enough on Pew Pew.
TL;DR Version:
Shield Damage Reduction should work just like hull resistances mathematically, shield resistance should be granted primarily by shield power and only secondary by powers, and base shield capacities should be increased.

How do shield resistances and hull resistances work now?
  • Hull Resistance is calculated from all the various damage resistance bonuses you gain. The bonus you gain is not the same as straight damage reduction, instead it makes more sense to see it as a percentage to your effective hull points. The effective damage reduction (e.g. the damage you take is reduced by this before applied to your hull points) is 1 - (100 / (100 + Resistance Modifiers)). The formula itself ensures you can't get 100 % hull resistance, which would make you immune to damage, but there is also a cap at 75 %.
    The formula was provided by Cryptic several months ago, and I am assuming it is still up to date.
    To reach the cap, you would need to stack resistance for a total of 300. The Ablative Armor Generator of the Intrepid is the only ability to break this cap.
  • Shield Resistances are straightforward and additive. They directly describe by how much the damage you take is reduced. They are now also capped at 75 %.
    The 75 % cap is relatively easily reached by combining Emergeny Power to Shields 3 and Transfer Shield Strength, for example - at least it is easily reached for Cruisers.
    At a damage reduction of 50 %, a shield lasts twice as long as normal, and at a damage reduction of 75 %, it lasts 4 times as normal. Damage Reduction is highly valuable. (If you ever wondered why your shields felt like paper and why other people last so long even against focused fire - here is your answer.)

The Problem
Cruisers (and to some extent Carriers) greatly benefit from shield resistance stacking. It is there way to tank multiple ships. Science Vessels aren't "helpless" and benefit from their high base shield values. Some Bird of Preys, built with similar powers as a Cruiser. can reach fairly good resistances and be very tough, but their lower hull and shield values make them overall more susceptible to damage then Cruisers.
Escorts are the weakest of all in this area. Unfortunately, Escorts don't really get enough compensation from their offensive power to make this seem a fair trade-off anymore - the Cruiser is typically the superior platform if you want to mix "tanking" and "DPS". But even if it were so - playing an Escort would still easily be very frustrating, as you are just too fragile. For that reason, I do not recommend boosting Escort damage.

The Solution
Step 1) Shield Resistance should work like Hull Resistances.
This creates consistency within the system, but alone it would only serve to nerf everyone's survivability. (That's why it is only the first step.)

Step 2) Make power level more important for shield resistances.
A simple way to implement this would be to make shield resistance equal to shield power. Barring ay other abilities improving shield resistances, this would mean damage reductions values of 4 % at 5 Shield Power, 20 % at 25, 33 % at 50, 50 % at 100 and 56 % at 125.

Step 3) Adjust powers to ensure that they remain useful but do not overshadow power alone.
Power Changes:
  • Emergency Power to Shields:
    Turn the current damage reduction into a resistance value and reduce the duration to 5 seconds (which would mean it mimics the other Emergency Power skills that provide a 30 second power bonus and a 5 second boost. Keep in mind that the bonus to shield power still leads to better resistances.
  • Extend Shields:
    Extend Shields could grant your ally your shield resistance value as a bonus. The different ranks of ES would affect its duration instead of the size of its bonus. With a setup like this, a Cruiser at 125 Shield Power supporting another ship at 125 shield power would allow to achieve an effective resistance (damage reduction) of 71 %.
  • Transfer Shield Strength:
    Increase the amount of healing it grants, and have it add to your shield resistance value.
  • Tachyon Beam:
    Tachyon Beams current effectiveness is particularly good against enemies stacking shield resists. Since the "reasonable" values of shield resistance are lower then they used to be, we might want to raise the shield drain somewhat (say, by 25 to 50 %.)
  • Charged Particle Burst:
    With the same rationale as for Tachyon Beams, we will have to increase the shield drain somewhat.
  • Tetryon Weapons: See CPB and TB.

Step 4) Adjust shield related items.
  • The "new" Mark XI Console from the Emblem shop that grants a bonus to your shield capacity should grant a shield resistance value (similar to Armor Consoles) and stack with itself like all other consoles.
  • The consoles boosting shield regeneration needs an improvement.
  • Improve the Regeneration of Normal, Resilient and Regenerative shields slightly so that Covariant [CAP]x3 shield are not overshadowing them so much.
  • Optional: Considering Adjusting all shield capacities. Even with a fair amount of stacking, the new "maximum" of shield resistance might be closer to 50 % then to 75 %, which means at the "top" level of resistance stacking, we are losing basically half of our effective shield points. This might warrant adjusting all shield point totals upward to cover some of the gap. Keep in mind that raising shield capacity but not significantly changing shield heals, it still takes some time to recover all that damage. This is probably a good thing - this gives people more time to react to taking significant damage, but they do not become indestructible and the overall length of combat would not be much impacted.

Expected Consequences
This changes "nerfs" the typical top amount of shield resistance that's attainable currently, but on the other hand gives everyone a way to reach a fairly good resistance value when under pressure, even if not using powers. This makes it match more closely to weapon power in importance, too. It provides some more consistency within the system. It helps all classes, but particularly Escorts that have a hard time boosting their shield resistances compared to other vessels. It still makes Cruisers the best at gaining shield resistance, but requires more work and specialization then before, leveling the play-field overall.

---

Now it's your turn to tell me how awesome and smart I am for coming up with such a genius idea, or why this is a terrible bad idea that should have never seen the light of day.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
11-30-2010, 09:42 AM


I have to admit that on paper that looks like a pretty damned impressive suggestion. It might be nice to see something like this considered when the Devs get to work on solving the "yo yo" hull issue. In another post you made a good point about how if shield power level is the primary source of resistance then having your buffs stripped by sub nuc wouldn't be such a death sentence in most cases.

If there were a way, I'd be interested in seeing this implemented.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
11-30-2010, 10:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveHale View Post


I have to admit that on paper that looks like a pretty damned impressive suggestion. It might be nice to see something like this considered when the Devs get to work on solving the "yo yo" hull issue. In another post you made a good point about how if shield power level is the primary source of resistance then having your buffs stripped by sub nuc wouldn't be such a death sentence in most cases.

If there were a way, I'd be interested in seeing this implemented.
Seems you're the only one so far. That leaves us no other choice - what are the current Cryptic/Atari stock options? If we pool together, what can we get?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
11-30-2010, 12:16 PM
It does sound interesting.......
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
11-30-2010, 01:22 PM
I've noticed another thing from a thread - raising the value of shield power also raises the value of powers like Target Subsystem Shields and any other energy drain effects. I would say that's a good addition, too. SNB will not be automatically the "killer" against anyone with high resistances (but still against many, particularly Cruisers that field a lot of EptS to boost their shield power so they can keep Pew-Pewing or healing), but the BTSS skill will now be a new weapon in the arsenal - kinda like it was before it was "nerferd" to remove the infinite-shield-drain-stacking that was popular before season 1. 2...
(Just thinking about that makes me recognize how much better things are now in this game!)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
11-30-2010, 01:32 PM
i like most of this, and quite frankly, support anythign that forces ship captain to use ANY other setting besides: 125 guns, 50 shields, 50 engines, 35 aux.

i have to ask though...

what about bleed?

also, do emergency power to shields still add the shields power, STACKED with added shields resistence, AND reduced Bleed?

if bleed is almost negated, and shield resistance cuts damage by 75%, and hull resist is high...
well you get the idea...

some ships just have more power to throw around!
its much easier for the cruiser to maintain 125 guns AND 125 shields...
and this means FULL damage, Mininum damage to shields, minimum bleed, and minimum damage to hull.

however, smaller craft just wouldnt be able to cope....
it sounds like we are repalcing one stacking problem for another.

although this could lead to TRUE "Torpedo Baots"
where escorts and BoP's have MAX shields and simply come in to a target whose shields are ablout to buckle and unleash high damage projectile weaponry at point blank range!

BUT...

the idea is well concieved, and well thought out.

i STILL think the key is NOT in damage reduction, but in increased SHIELD RECHARGE RATE.
i think sheidl power should reduce bleed.
shield boff abilities should reduce damage.
and SHIELD POWER should DRASTICALLY increase SHEILD RECHARGE RATE (about 3-6 times what they are now)

this would help cruisers with high shield settings to withstand punishing firepower... but with limits...
and encourage escorts to hit and run, but provide a means for them to quickly recover shields once they find a low in the fighting.

even with this suggested system, the ONLY shield anyone is going to use is Covariant Capx3

making all other shields still WORTHLESS.

although well written this system sounds very much like what we have now.

make a HUGE buffer between you and death using Cov capx3 shields.... and use sheild power and boffs to negate damage....
the one with the highest shield power and most shield boff powers wins!!!

so... nothing has really changed.
cruisers still win... escorts still die...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
11-30-2010, 01:37 PM
I had a simlar idea with my Shield thread back in the Tribble forum where Shield Power is proportaional to shield resistances.

For instance, shields at full power would essentially could allow players (even escorts) survive a cloaked alpha strike. Which is pretty much the most deadly tactic in-game.

At the same time, shield power would drain like weapon power. Emergency Power to Shields would now more or less act as a cushion in softening up that shield power loss instead of adding shield resistance.



Now I like the idea of Shield Consoles adding resistances, but I rather ships have innate shield resistances, and with consoles, modify the Regeneration Consoles into Shield Regeneration and Resistance Consoles. This would add a whole new variety to the game.

Perhaps ship shields could be craftable and we be allowed to choose their strengths?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
12-01-2010, 01:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Rek View Post
i like most of this, and quite frankly, support anythign that forces ship captain to use ANY other setting besides: 125 guns, 50 shields, 50 engines, 35 aux.

i have to ask though...

what about bleed?
I am not 100 % sure how bleedthrough works, unfortunately. I know it's normally 10 % of the damage you take (5 % with Resilient Shields), but is it 10 % after or before the shield resistances are applied? I don't think we need to be all that concerned about this - how ever it works now seems to work fine. I am not really a fan of increasing the bleedthrough (except via powers and special weapons like transphasics) based on shield status. It just adds an unnecessary complication IMO.

Quote:
also, do emergency power to shields still add the shields power, STACKED with added shields resistence, AND reduced Bleed?
The idea is that it increases your shield power which naturally icnreases yoru shield resistance. It might also grant an extra bonus to shield resistance, but only last for 5 seconds. All other Emergency Powers have a 5 second duration secondary bonus. (Eninges => Speed Buff; Auxillary => Stealth Sight Buff; Weapons => Damage Buff). The main source of shield resistance is the resulting energy level, not the buffs, though.

Quote:
i STILL think the key is NOT in damage reduction, but in increased SHIELD RECHARGE RATE.
That can help to some extent, but not infinitely so. Shield Recharge Rate is yet another "yo-yo" effect in the game, and it doesn't really accurately reflect Startrek usually, either. It doesn't seem as if shields recover all that quickly. The current rates are relatively sensible, and relying on resistance means you last longer, but you are still going down eventually.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
12-01-2010, 04:14 AM
I'd actually like to see a bit of a boost to shield recharge rate but I'm concerned about unintended consequences. For example, just a sliver of shielding is enough to ruin a perfectly good torpedo strike. Higher shield power makes sense as a way to increase damage reduction as well as regen rate but doing too much of one (or both) could really hurt damage dealers who may find that they live longer but still have a weaker effect because they can't find hull.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
12-01-2010, 05:40 AM
Quote:
I'd actually like to see a bit of a boost to shield recharge rate but I'm concerned about unintended consequences. For example, just a sliver of shielding is enough to ruin a perfectly good torpedo strike. Higher shield power makes sense as a way to increase damage reduction as well as regen rate but doing too much of one (or both) could really hurt damage dealers who may find that they live longer but still have a weaker effect because they can't find hull.
Increasing the frequency of the regeneration "ticks" would probably be bad. One of the "secret" benefits of Extend Shields is that it provides a faster shield recovery then normal. Even if the recovery is low, it can help against a stray torpedo hit.

But increasing the regeneration value itself might be okay. Too some extent, at least.

A real challenge to me seems to be that Covariant [Cap]x3 shields are typically the best shield to have. It's nice that you're shields regenerate a crap-ton of damage after 6 seconds, but if the enemy can destroy you in 5.5 seconds, they won't get to that. Resistances kinda help both sides - it makes your shields last longer, so you get more regeneration cycles in, and shields that already last long still last longer.
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