Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
12-10-2010, 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Data
So what is the difference between OoVs A-Team and LFs PvP PuG. Both are pre-made before a match but one is geared towards running a certain composition and load out and one is geared just to PvP regardless of which ships are int he group.
The difference is that OoV's A-team vs an LF premade is that OoV balances their team before they send it into the queues. However, this is a bad comparison, because OoV also sends out balanced "non A-teams" (even though I hate using the term A-team; it fails to address the build-wars issues).

I mean, it is not that hard to balance a team. If you have 5 escorts, 2 science, and one healboat - you don't say "first come first serve" unless the other characters arrived late. A 5 escort team can pugstomp alot of people, but the second it meets a semi-cohesive pug (or premade) it's just going to fall apart.

So lets just go-over the checklist:
  • do you use ventrilo? - Yes, you have admitted to it.
  • do you form a team before the match begins? - yes, you have admitted to it.
  • do you queue 5 people in at a time? - yes, you have admitted to it.
If you answered yes to any of those, you're a premade. Partial/Full/Pugmade doesn't matter. It is still a premade team.

I mean, you can obviously say that you're not playing a serious competative premade, but you are still premading. I mean this with absolutely no offense; but to me it throws out the implied statement that you do not want to put out the effort to make a developed premade team or use it as an excuse for when you lose.

As a result of the massive beatings that you guys get from fleets when you have a 5 man "premade
" (again, no offense) people automatically assume that you're a bad fleet. No amount of clarification can really ramify that - though it can exasperate the situation. The general opinion is that if you are in a 5 man premade team, there is really no reason to lose to anything less than a 4 man premade (and even then, it should be a significantly difficult task). I mean, you can pugstomp all day, but when you repeatedly lose to other premades (for what? 8 months?) it shines a very bad light on the fleet in the fleeted pvp and premade community.

That's absolutely nothing to say against the individual playerskill and personality of the fleet - I've chatted and played with and against you guys, ya'll are cool (most of you). It's just that I see alot of wasted talent stagnating in LF - instead of optimizing the team composition and being a serious threat, you would rather pugstomp.

~~~

That said, TSI also runs "open composition" teams with the first come first serve rule. The difference is that we have alot of science which tends to automatically balance the teams. Additionally, we have multiple people that are adept at playing multiple roles (such as heal-bot / science-***** / dps-monger) that aren't afraid to roll into another character if the team needs it.

I just see a plethora of tacticals in LF and nothing else.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
12-10-2010, 01:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
The difference is that OoV's A-team vs an LF premade is that OoV balances their team before they send it into the queues. However, this is a bad comparison, because OoV also sends out balanced "non A-teams" (even though I hate using the term A-team; it fails to address the build-wars issues).

I mean, it is not that hard to balance a team. If you have 5 escorts, 2 science, and one healboat - you don't say "first come first serve" unless the other characters arrived late. A 5 escort team can pugstomp alot of people, but the second it meets a semi-cohesive pug (or premade) it's just going to fall apart.

So lets just go-over the checklist:
  • do you use ventrilo? - Yes, you have admitted to it.
  • do you form a team before the match begins? - yes, you have admitted to it.
  • do you queue 5 people in at a time? - yes, you have admitted to it.
If you answered yes to any of those, you're a premade. Partial/Full/Pugmade doesn't matter. It is still a premade team.

I mean, you can obviously say that you're not playing a serious competative premade, but you are still premading. I mean this with absolutely no offense; but to me it throws out the implied statement that you do not want to put out the effort to make a developed premade team or use it as an excuse for when you lose.

As a result of the massive beatings that you guys get from fleets when you have a 5 man "premade
" (again, no offense) people automatically assume that you're a bad fleet. No amount of clarification can really ramify that - though it can exasperate the situation. The general opinion is that if you are in a 5 man premade team, there is really no reason to lose to anything less than a 4 man premade (and even then, it should be a significantly difficult task). I mean, you can pugstomp all day, but when you repeatedly lose to other premades (for what? 8 months?) it shines a very bad light on the fleet in the fleeted pvp and premade community.

That's absolutely nothing to say against the individual playerskill and personality of the fleet - I've chatted and played with and against you guys, ya'll are cool (most of you). It's just that I see alot of wasted talent stagnating in LF - instead of optimizing the team composition and being a serious threat, you would rather pugstomp.

~~~

That said, TSI also runs "open composition" teams with the first come first serve rule. The difference is that we have alot of science which tends to automatically balance the teams. Additionally, we have multiple people that are adept at playing multiple roles (such as heal-bot / science-***** / dps-monger) that aren't afraid to roll into another character if the team needs it.

I just see a plethora of tacticals in LF and nothing else.
i just like to get some of us together and have at it win or lose. its just a game
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
12-11-2010, 12:17 PM
Which is the worst PvP fleet in the game?

Whichever has the least number of Science Officers.

Discuss. ;-)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
12-11-2010, 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Middlemore
Which is the worst PvP fleet in the game?

Whichever has the least number of Science Officers.

Discuss. ;-)
science is so important in high end pvp, I would rather run 2 dps, 2 science, 1 heal than 2 dps 1 science 2 heal. I always laugh at the fact that there are people that adamantly believe that science is terrible - when in fact it is often the lynchpin that makes or breaks the team.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
12-11-2010, 02:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
science is so important in high end pvp, I would rather run 2 dps, 2 science, 1 heal than 2 dps 1 science 2 heal. I always laugh at the fact that there are people that adamantly believe that science is terrible - when in fact it is often the lynchpin that makes or breaks the team.
i can think of a few fights we have had with either tsi interfleet or tsi/GoD where the differnce was the the extra sci ship being the deciding factor of the match as it can determine which ships are able to be broken and begin the cascade of defeat
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
12-11-2010, 03:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
The difference is that OoV's A-team vs an LF premade is that OoV balances their team before they send it into the queues. However, this is a bad comparison, because OoV also sends out balanced "non A-teams" (even though I hate using the term A-team; it fails to address the build-wars issues).

Well.. LF does not have a "A-Team" - We obviously have some very good PvPers, and when we (rarely) get 5 of the best together, you *could* call it our "A-Team" - However, we basically take the first five (or four or three) people that wants to PvP, and team them up.. Just like we have some really good PvPers, we also have people that are still learning.. I would *never* say no to someone, just because they might not be the best.. If they want to PvP, Ill team up with them (how else would they ever get better, and what would be the point of them joining LF in the first place)


I mean, it is not that hard to balance a team. If you have 5 escorts, 2 science, and one healboat - you don't say "first come first serve" unless the other characters arrived late. A 5 escort team can pugstomp alot of people, but the second it meets a semi-cohesive pug (or premade) it's just going to fall apart.

Obviously, but we dont really care about losing to a more cohesive team. Ill explain later.

So lets just go-over the checklist:
  • do you use ventrilo? - Yes, you have admitted to it.
    Yes, we use Vent, in like 1% of the matches Ive been in
  • do you form a team before the match begins? - yes, you have admitted to it.
    Obviously
  • do you queue 5 people in at a time? - yes, you have admitted to it.
    Or 4, or 3 or 2.. We que the group we have.. Its not *that* often 5 LF are ready for PvP at the same time
If you answered yes to any of those, you're a premade. Partial/Full/Pugmade doesn't matter. It is still a premade team.

We differ on the defination, naturally a team made before a match starts is a "premade" team..I just put a little more in the defination.. For me, the "Premade" team is not just a pregrouped team, but it is one where you have a certain, preselected lineup, you have your healers, your Scis, your DPSers.. LF is very likely to lack one or more of those functions, simply because each member flies what he feels like at that particular moment.

I mean, you can obviously say that you're not playing a serious competative premade, but you are still premading. I mean this with absolutely no offense; but to me it throws out the implied statement that you do not want to put out the effort to make a developed premade team or use it as an excuse for when you lose.

No excuses, we win some, we lose some.. Which doesnt really matter.. The first are the correct.. We dont care to aim for being the "best" PvP fleet.. If we did, we would have a lot more cruisers flying and a lot more SVs.. As it stands, we might have a cruiser, or we might have a SV.. But that is just because someone feel like flying that

As a result of the massive beatings that you guys get from fleets when you have a 5 man "premade
" (again, no offense) people automatically assume that you're a bad fleet. No amount of clarification can really ramify that - though it can exasperate the situation. The general opinion is that if you are in a 5 man premade team, there is really no reason to lose to anything less than a 4 man premade (and even then, it should be a significantly difficult task). I mean, you can pugstomp all day, but when you repeatedly lose to other premades (for what? 8 months?) it shines a very bad light on the fleet in the fleeted pvp and premade community.

Then perhaps the "fleeted PvP" and "Premade Community" take things too seriously.. Noone can deny that we have some really skilled PvP players, that would be ridiculous.. So youre saying that any "serious" PvP fleet would consider any fleet not serious a "bad fleet"?

No offense, but I personally (not speaking for my fleet here) would have nothing to do with a fleet, that per defination shuns anyone not living up to their idea/standards of playing.. The instant someone demands (I know you are not doing thta here) that I fly this or that ship with this or that loadout, I would say "forget it"


That's absolutely nothing to say against the individual playerskill and personality of the fleet - I've chatted and played with and against you guys, ya'll are cool (most of you). It's just that I see alot of wasted talent stagnating in LF - instead of optimizing the team composition and being a serious threat, you would rather pugstomp.

Well, look at it this way.. If LF really had a premade "A-Team" (by my defination) we would probably win 95%+ of our matches.. Most of these wins would be 15/0 walkovers.. I dont find that fun, I cant see how anyone can find it fun to que into a match and know that 19 times out of 20 they would win the match with no contest.

I (personally again) would rather play 20 matches, win the 10 close, lose 9 close and be 0/15 stomped in the last, than winning 19 out of 20, while halfasleep.



~~~

That said, TSI also runs "open composition" teams with the first come first serve rule. The difference is that we have alot of science which tends to automatically balance the teams. Additionally, we have multiple people that are adept at playing multiple roles (such as heal-bot / science-***** / dps-monger) that aren't afraid to roll into another character if the team needs it.

I just see a plethora of tacticals in LF and nothing else.

We actually have quite a few Scis.. You just often see them in escorts.. Im probably the only one to primarily fly Tactical.. GF alternates between Sci and Tac, Imisei mainly fly Sci, Ivan is mainly Sci, Lerp is mainly Eng, Rusot mainly Sci
/charlimit
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
12-11-2010, 03:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by faithborn
I mean this with absolutely no offense; but to me it throws out the implied statement that you do not want to put out the effort to make a developed premade team or use it as an excuse for when you lose.
How do you start a "developed" premade with players that decided to avoid cookie cutter builds to make PvP more challenging for themselves?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
12-11-2010, 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
/charlimit
Tbh in my little corner of the world whether on Stop (tsi) or Wrath/Outcast (pew pew) i have 90% of the time joined a group that starts out with two players, then 3 then 4 and so on as playes log in and out. I only have a tac fed who uses a def-r, i have tried the crusier thing but tbh not my cup of tea.

It is not a common experience to find myself with a perfect group compsition, the main reason for that lvl of setup is when you know you are going to be facing a carefully prepared premade yourself, such as in the KT league. Today we started with three and often found the two unknown players sticking around for a couple of matches before ungrouping. The only reason we might kick someone after a match is if another player from teh fleet (or friends list) wanted to pvp with us.

Yes it would be fair to say we do like to play well, we do like to win and more often than not that will happen. we also get beaten by groups that have good players and better synergy. Today for example our almost all tac/escort grp could not break a heal orientated group even tho 3 of us were on vent. The fact that we run a mishmash of ships/captain types does as you say bring a little excitement to the match, particularly when you see a fleet from QEW for example on the other side of the map, a win is not a certainty. Besides if we only ever run perfect groups a good number of players would have to roll new characters, one of each class, to ensure the right mix or wait and hope the required players for another group logged on, i would have to roll x2 fedside, and i doubt i would be as good as a healer as i am a tactical.


In the end there is not so big a difference between the two guilds attitude wise when it comes to group setup on a day to day level. obviously tsi/pew pew prefer to recruit players that already have shown themselves as skilled in pvp but I don't see that this is a bad thing to request it takes players less time to get a feel for each others gamestyle so the become an active intergroup member. It is nice when another team wants to fight and you think we better take a tactical for this one that any one of the online tacticals will do as the differnce between the majority of players in the fleet is slight (tho there are some exceptions to the rule but i am not 100% convinced they are really human). It is nice simply to play with team members you only have to worry about when they are getting focused fired not whether they are lost somewhere on the map.

That said there is not one player i would think that would refuse to answer a request for help from any player who sent a polite request to understand how something is done, whether that is build from skill points, BO options, weapon choices, macos and sometimes even how attack runs are executed and on what targets and why. We might be a lot of things but we are not a bunch of egotistical gits, well not often, it is pvp on the internetz and anyone can have a bad/rude day.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
12-12-2010, 08:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ardept View Post
Tbh in my little corner of the world whether on Stop (tsi) or Wrath/Outcast (pew pew) i have 90% of the time joined a group that starts out with two players, then 3 then 4 and so on as playes log in and out. I only have a tac fed who uses a def-r, i have tried the crusier thing but tbh not my cup of tea.

It is not a common experience to find myself with a perfect group compsition, the main reason for that lvl of setup is when you know you are going to be facing a carefully prepared premade yourself, such as in the KT league. Today we started with three and often found the two unknown players sticking around for a couple of matches before ungrouping. The only reason we might kick someone after a match is if another player from teh fleet (or friends list) wanted to pvp with us.

Yes it would be fair to say we do like to play well, we do like to win and more often than not that will happen. we also get beaten by groups that have good players and better synergy. Today for example our almost all tac/escort grp could not break a heal orientated group even tho 3 of us were on vent. The fact that we run a mishmash of ships/captain types does as you say bring a little excitement to the match, particularly when you see a fleet from QEW for example on the other side of the map, a win is not a certainty. Besides if we only ever run perfect groups a good number of players would have to roll new characters, one of each class, to ensure the right mix or wait and hope the required players for another group logged on, i would have to roll x2 fedside, and i doubt i would be as good as a healer as i am a tactical.


In the end there is not so big a difference between the two guilds attitude wise when it comes to group setup on a day to day level. obviously tsi/pew pew prefer to recruit players that already have shown themselves as skilled in pvp but I don't see that this is a bad thing to request it takes players less time to get a feel for each others gamestyle so the become an active intergroup member. It is nice when another team wants to fight and you think we better take a tactical for this one that any one of the online tacticals will do as the differnce between the majority of players in the fleet is slight (tho there are some exceptions to the rule but i am not 100% convinced they are really human). It is nice simply to play with team members you only have to worry about when they are getting focused fired not whether they are lost somewhere on the map.

That said there is not one player i would think that would refuse to answer a request for help from any player who sent a polite request to understand how something is done, whether that is build from skill points, BO options, weapon choices, macos and sometimes even how attack runs are executed and on what targets and why. We might be a lot of things but we are not a bunch of egotistical gits, well not often, it is pvp on the internetz and anyone can have a bad/rude day.
I know that, the TSI people I play with, are all nice guys.. Many of them Ive seen fly by themselves, or PUGing up with a small core TSI group (2-3 players)

Im not talking about TSI per se, Im talking about those guilds whose lineup/setups are the same as 99% of all the other established PvP fleets/ships.

By starting to follow the "PvP doctrine" we lose out on the ships we're interested in playing.. I mean any semicompetent PvP fleet can put together a healstacking cruisergroup, with 1-2 SVs for CC, and simply outlast 99% of all opponents.

Imaginge if almost everyone was flying the same ships, with the same loadout.. Where would the variety be? What would the fun be?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
12-12-2010, 02:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
I know that, the TSI people I play with, are all nice guys.. Many of them Ive seen fly by themselves, or PUGing up with a small core TSI group (2-3 players)

Im not talking about TSI per se, Im talking about those guilds whose lineup/setups are the same as 99% of all the other established PvP fleets/ships.

By starting to follow the "PvP doctrine" we lose out on the ships we're interested in playing.. I mean any semicompetent PvP fleet can put together a healstacking cruisergroup, with 1-2 SVs for CC, and simply outlast 99% of all opponents.

Imaginge if almost everyone was flying the same ships, with the same loadout.. Where would the variety be? What would the fun be?
I R DA BESTSES

i just play to have fun
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