Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
12-06-2010, 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commadore_Bob
Well, as I have maintained, Data is dead. I really have no desire to see B4....
Actually, B4 is dead. He committed suicide so Data could come back.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
12-06-2010, 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavilier210 View Post
Actually, B4 is dead. He committed suicide so Data could come back.
Yeah, no. Data was vaporized. A copy of Data was saved. But Data himself is gone.

My new computer has all the old files as my old computer. It runs the same OS and has the same software and even has the old harddrive; but I don't consider the new computer the same as the old one.

If Data was a concious being; he ceased to exist the same day Shinzon did.
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# 13
12-06-2010, 08:34 PM
So when Spock died and was turned into charcoal by the radiation in the engine room in ST II, and he "copied" himself into McCoy, then later was copied back into a newly 'regrown' body... that new Spock isn't Spock?


because its exactly what Data did. He gave B4 his "katra" which was later decompressed inside of the positronic brain of B4. Data tried to delete himself because he couldn't allow B4 to die so he could live, but while Data was saying goodbye to LaForge, B4 deleted himself to let Data live, because he was "more important" to the Federation.

Also, they did copy the "essence" of B4 into a mainframe at the Soong Foundation before they ever started their work, so he isn't "DEAD" they just don't have another Soong-type android body yet to let B4 inhabit. So he's stored.

Star Trek soft canon says that a lot of Vulcan katras are stored in the same manner, as a sort of living history that scholars can meld with.

Which is why Spock's father was appalled that Kirk didn't bring Spock him.. he said "then we truly have lost Spock for all time" or something like that.


The Countdown comic establishes that Data is ALIVE and in B4s body, and the STO novel describes how it happened. That is as close to canon as ANYTHING is, and while you are free to believe that Data is "dead" because his body died on the Scimitar, you have nothing to support that other than your own wishes.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
12-06-2010, 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberion1701
So when Spock died and was turned into charcoal by the radiation in the engine room in ST II, and he "copied" himself into McCoy, then later was copied back into a newly 'regrown' body... that new Spock isn't Spock?


because its exactly what Data did. He gave B4 his "katra" which was later decompressed inside of the positronic brain of B4. Data tried to delete himself because he couldn't allow B4 to die so he could live, but while Data was saying goodbye to LaForge, B4 deleted himself to let Data live, because he was "more important" to the Federation.

Also, they did copy the "essence" of B4 into a mainframe at the Soong Foundation before they ever started their work, so he isn't "DEAD" they just don't have another Soong-type android body yet to let B4 inhabit. So he's stored.

Star Trek soft canon says that a lot of Vulcan katras are stored in the same manner, as a sort of living history that scholars can meld with.

Which is why Spock's father was appalled that Kirk didn't bring Spock him.. he said "then we truly have lost Spock for all time" or something like that.


The Countdown comic establishes that Data is ALIVE and in B4s body, and the STO novel describes how it happened. That is as close to canon as ANYTHING is, and while you are free to believe that Data is "dead" because his body died on the Scimitar, you have nothing to support that other than your own wishes.
It's canon as far as the game is concerned
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
12-06-2010, 08:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiberion1701
So when Spock died and was turned into charcoal by the radiation in the engine room in ST II, and he "copied" himself into McCoy, then later was copied back into a newly 'regrown' body... that new Spock isn't Spock?


because its exactly what Data did. He gave B4 his "katra" which was later decompressed inside of the positronic brain of B4. Data tried to delete himself because he couldn't allow B4 to die so he could live, but while Data was saying goodbye to LaForge, B4 deleted himself to let Data live, because he was "more important" to the Federation.

Also, they did copy the "essence" of B4 into a mainframe at the Soong Foundation before they ever started their work, so he isn't "DEAD" they just don't have another Soong-type android body yet to let B4 inhabit. So he's stored.

Star Trek soft canon says that a lot of Vulcan katras are stored in the same manner, as a sort of living history that scholars can meld with.

Which is why Spock's father was appalled that Kirk didn't bring Spock him.. he said "then we truly have lost Spock for all time" or something like that.


The Countdown comic establishes that Data is ALIVE and in B4s body, and the STO novel describes how it happened. That is as close to canon as ANYTHING is, and while you are free to believe that Data is "dead" because his body died on the Scimitar, you have nothing to support that other than your own wishes.
I'm not going to get into a philosophical debate over the souls of sci-fi machines. That could go on for hours.

Here's the way I see it: if it's not on screen, it's not canon. And I think STO's explanation is somewhat lacking. Because if Data existed in B4 and Data at the same time, then....arghh!! See, this why I don't want to start that debate.

How many times did Harry Kim come back? Seriously, it starts losing its touch. "Oh, no! He died. What sort of technobabble will bring him back this time?" Even Kenny doesn't die that often.

To me, Data is dead. For once, I want Star Trek to live with the consquences of their actions. Let characters who died, die. I would be more interested in seeing B4 try to adapt to his new life than just using him as a giant reset button.

/rant (not at you or STO, just Star Trek writers in general)
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
12-06-2010, 08:53 PM
Jadzia stayed dead
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
12-06-2010, 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavilier210 View Post
Jadzia stayed dead
Exactly. I would have preferred B4 to take on the Ezri role. A new entity that happened to have data's memories. They didn't give Ezri Jadzia's old job...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
12-06-2010, 09:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commadore_Bob
Exactly. I would have preferred B4 to take on the Ezri role. A new entity that happened to have data's memories. They didn't give Ezri Jadzia's old job...
Thankfully. Jadzia was tough, but Worf would have split poor Ezri up the middle...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
12-06-2010, 09:11 PM
Well it doesn't matter what you prefer, the GAME CANON says Data is alive and his sentience took over the B4 body.


Spock existed within himself AND McCoy for several minutes as well when he gave his katra before perishing in the reactor room.

Its even easier to imagine with data, because he is a completely different kind of lifeform. In this fictional world, he has gained sentience, even though his being is made up of circuits and positronic "patterns" saved inside his brain, which is fundamentally different from flesh-beings, which are made up of blood vessels and "electro-magnetic" patterns stored in OUR Brains.


Now, in real life I believe in Souls and all of that, but that doesn't relate to a work of fiction. While Data may or may not have a "soul" - he certainly has a set of memories and a personality, and THAT is stored in an EXTREMELY complex pile of data and logic routines. In the end, its still electronic 'data' and can be stored and transferred given the proper hardware.

And likewise, it needs the proper "hardware" to run. Once the Soong foundation learned how to "boot" data's program... his memories, personality, and logic and ethics subroutines were active and he WAS data again, just running on new Hardware.


Consider this one. Riker was split in a transporter accident, and the result was TWO beings. I've never heard anyone argue that both of them were not real people with actual "souls" or whatever makes a person a person (at least in the fictional world) - so one person became two.

The only reason "WIll" Riker remained Will is because he was the one that had led a "life" while the other one had remained trapped. Thomas wasn't any less WIlliam T Riker than the one we know simply because he had a "copied" body.


Trek is very loose on its metaphysical rules, and I am glad it is, because it presents us with the VERY interesting questions to ponder.

Nonetheless, Data is alive as far as soft canon goes, and it was even hinted that Data was "in there" on screen at the end of Nemesis. So, your feelings aside, its a done deal.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
12-06-2010, 09:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexsam View Post
Thankfully. Jadzia was tough, but Worf would have split poor Ezri up the middle...
OOOOkAaaayy...

Now I'm going to have THAT image, stuck in my head till I go to bed tonight....
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