Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 151
03-21-2011, 10:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearded1ne
Seriously turn on an xbox and get a copy of halo. Then look at FORGE. I hope the 2d thing is very temporary if this is a level construction program. I don't mean to be a jerk and i know it is still under construction. Please if it is possible, look into this for creative people that want to see what they are doing.
I'm pretty sure the Dev's have played both of them. 101 Training and research for most game designers, but remember this is an MMO customisable game engine and not a one of developed game Product. I really think that if the 2D map editing is difficult, any 3D element would be even more complicated. I'm al for it, however I'm a Foundry addict, most people just want to hop on create and have fun. The more complicated it becomes, the more the masses will get upset, the less mission will be authored. Which is good for me, more players for my missions, But the Foundry is for everyone to use, not just the die hard map creators.

Allot of stuff is still possible once you learn the tools, available objects and the sizes. Here are a few picks of a shuttle bay I started working on for fun last night. http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/d...t=9959776e.pbw
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 152
03-21-2011, 11:34 PM
I think the problem here is that the level will apparently rendered when loaded. Might be an engine limitation but it looks to me like the game cannot render objects on thy fly. This would mean that the editor would have to load every single object which would probably kill performance (and possibly some graphics cards).

I think this is also one of the reasons, why it always takes a moment for the map to load when testing even if you made no changes. But since I am no programmer this is practically just guessing about my observations.


The 2D editor works quite well in my oppinion as I'm basically not modelling but placing objects. Sure, every now and then I'm trying to place an object exactly so that I end up loading the level, exiting, moving the object and loading the level again over and over.
But most of the time you can work with X and Z values. Once you figured out how far the have to be placed apart (like with walls), it probably takes less time placing them in a 2D grid as if you would have needed trying to place them in an 3D environment.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 153
03-22-2011, 10:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearded1ne
Seriously turn on an xbox and get a copy of halo. Then look at FORGE. I hope the 2d thing is very temporary if this is a level construction program. I don't mean to be a jerk and i know it is still under construction. Please if it is possible, look into this for creative people that want to see what they are doing.
Yeah...about this...I'm sorry. I did not realize you guys at cryptic aren't a giant group of people that can finish a project within a very small amount of time. I didn't mean that anyway. I was frustrated.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 154
03-22-2011, 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bearded1ne
Yeah...about this...I'm sorry. I did not realize you guys at cryptic aren't a giant group of people that can finish a project within a very small amount of time. I didn't mean that anyway. I was frustrated.
Nice... Lesson Forums one... Don't type under the influence of Frustration... Napoleon_Blownapart can detest to this rule... I think we all learned the hard way...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 155
03-27-2011, 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patarival View Post
I think the problem here is that the level will apparently rendered when loaded. Might be an engine limitation but it looks to me like the game cannot render objects on thy fly. This would mean that the editor would have to load every single object which would probably kill performance (and possibly some graphics cards).

I think this is also one of the reasons, why it always takes a moment for the map to load when testing even if you made no changes. But since I am no programmer this is practically just guessing about my observations.


The 2D editor works quite well in my oppinion as I'm basically not modelling but placing objects. Sure, every now and then I'm trying to place an object exactly so that I end up loading the level, exiting, moving the object and loading the level again over and over.
But most of the time you can work with X and Z values. Once you figured out how far the have to be placed apart (like with walls), it probably takes less time placing them in a 2D grid as if you would have needed trying to place them in an 3D environment.

Indeed the 'render when loaded' means that any cut scene editor would have to start with a system that has already been loaded and rendered, which is why I think you'd have to have an initial starting place from within the testing scenario, start by freezing the game, and initiating the cut scene editor from that moment. That starts you with a specific volume and a specific number of objects to manipulate. The editor would have to allow you to work on those objects, based on their initial positions and limited to the start-volume you are in when initiated. Yo reduce memory for this editor, is that when you start it, there is no reason for objects to remain fully-rendered, you could just operate on placeholders from that point forward, at least until you are ready to run through a test scene and make a final cut.

As another poster mentioned, you dont want scenes to be too epically long, a limit to the duration would be smart.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 156
03-27-2011, 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patarival View Post
Once you figured out how far the have to be placed apart (like with walls), it probably takes less time placing them in a 2D grid as if you would have needed trying to place them in an 3D environment.
Not in the slightest. If this is your first experience with "modding" tools your naivite can be forgiven but if you've ever used the TES or Fallout 3 Construction Sets you must have a screw loose to think the Foundry is anywhere near an efficient way of doing things.

The beauty of 3D editing is that if you want to, say put a pencil in a pencil pot, you drag a pencil into your editing window then drag it into the pencil pot - easy as that. No trying to line it up then loading your map cos it's all done in real-time, as quick as you can do it with a real pencil (once you know how to use the software of course)

Even the old NWN editor is 3D, so it boggles my mind to think that Cryptic are plodding along with this 2D thing. I know one's got nothing to do with the other, it's just to emphasize that software and technology have moved far beyond what the Foundry is capable of. I recall using an editor much like the Foundry in the '90s on my Amiga, with some Doom clone that was moddable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 157
03-30-2011, 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varlo
Even the old NWN editor is 3D, so it boggles my mind to think that Cryptic are plodding along with this 2D thing.
I think you are missing the point, the fact is that there is no 3D tool or engine until you submit it and the project is rendered. That is kind of a limitation to the process and I suppose the engine they use. So the 2D interface is just that, an graphical interface to some database entries, not a rendering engine. You'd have to have a whole engine running local on your machine to get a 3D interface
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 158
04-02-2011, 01:24 PM
Nice to see this is out, but will the Foundry actually save STO? Cos after all the foundry is limited by that the devs already have in the game. Will we see a change from "killing a klingon and scan 5 objects" type of missions?

Real question is is it worth me clearing space from my hdd to reinstall this game?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 159
04-03-2011, 01:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by filbones View Post
Allot of stuff is still possible once you learn the tools, available objects and the sizes. Here are a few picks of a shuttle bay I started working on for fun last night. http://s223.photobucket.com/albums/d...t=9959776e.pbw
Whoa, great work on that bay! Looks wonderful.

I've got a week off coming up, quite keen to really dive in and see what more I can do. Can't wait for the cut-scene functionality, it's going to be great for machinima makers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 160
04-03-2011, 12:49 PM
Ok it seems that in NPC contact dialogues you can set the pass/fail flag in some dialogues. I would like to see added to that drop down menu a "mission complete" option, so you have more choice of how to complete missions. I think it could also allow for a lot more freedom if the pass/fail/complete dropdown became available in popup dialogues as well as NPC contact dialogues.

If you're basing rewards on the mount of clicking and killing done in missions, this addition shouldn't be open for exploiting xp gain as the player gets a decent reward for doing the mission themselves or a lower reward for say, ferrying a group of mercenaries to a battle but not beaming down and engaging in the battle themselves.

You have to jump through so many hoops to get 10 diplomacy xp, it seems like a fair balance to give 10 skill points, or even just 5 for the player and 1 for each BO.

I'm also having difficulty in re-using maps between objectives. I can spawn at a second spawn point but I'm only being presented with the objective from the first time I visited the map in question, meaning I'd have to clone the whole map and take up twice as much space on the server to achieve the desired result, and I'd have to add a "b" or something to the end of the cloned map name (which will show above the player's map) so the engine can tell them apart.

I'm finding some pretty cool (I think) uses for the functions which have been added since beta. Keep them coming
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