Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
12-14-2010, 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altexist View Post
No, really. What did happen to the player counci?. Do you guys still talk to them? Or was it just an idea that faded anyway? Do the people involved still have the council robes? -- I assume you did get robes for everyone on the council. It wouldn’t be very official without them.
I never got a robe.

*writes a letter to Cryptic*
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
12-14-2010, 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altexist View Post
No, really. What did happen to the player counci?. Do you guys still talk to them? Or was it just an idea that faded anyway? Do the people involved still have the council robes? -- I assume you did get robes for everyone on the council. It wouldn’t be very official without them.
Well, the break-up was rough.

Cryptic tanked the player council but the Player Council still had the verbal abuse, death threats, and crazies from the player-base harassing them.

Pity too. The intent was to get additional voices outside the community as well as the official forums to be heard. Even STOked had outside viewers at the time who didn't want to play the game after launch and were tracking progress of STO on the their podcast. I think the worst off was the woman who ran the "Trek and Dr. Who blog" - people said some terrible things to her.

So, the idea was "infinite diversity in infinite combinations". Unfortunately, a very small, very vocal portion of the forums took that to mean harassing language, instead of a variety of input.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
12-14-2010, 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Revo
the point of the council was to bring feedback from outside the forum as well as us here too, so you can help shape its future by continuing to post here.

if the council was still in effect, the only way to join was if you had an external website with viewers who might not have their voice heard by cryptic. your job would have been to bring that feedback to cryptic's attention

you yourself, would have no extra say in the game development.
Whether intentional or not, its a simple fact of human psychology that it is easier to focus on individuals than on a crowd. Because of that, the individuals who made up the council would have gotten more direct attention from the Devs than the crowd that posts on the forums. Even with the best of intentions, the Devs wouldnt have been able to NOT give the 5/10/however many council members more direct attention than that received by the same number of random joes on the forum. For that reason, I'm glad the idea was scrapped. We all deserve equal opportunity for our feedback to be heard. And as paying customers, our feedback should definitely be more important than that of people who arent playing the game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
12-14-2010, 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StormShade
Everyone has a voice. YOU are the player council, right here on the forums.

We take great pride in the fact the we aren't just continuing development of STO, we're continuing to develop it with you. Your voices are heard loud and clear in the office. Not only from my efforts, but also from the efforts of much of the dev team, including our executive producer.

Your feedback is incredibly important, and most certainly has a very large effect on the direction the game continues to move in.

Thanks,

Stormshade

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKv7mB1j80c

Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
12-14-2010, 01:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
Whether intentional or not, its a simple fact that it is easier to focus on individuals than on a crowd. Because of that, the individuals who made up the council would have gotten more direct attention from the Devs than the crowd that posts on the forums. For that reason, I'm glad the idea was scrapped. We all deserve equal opportunity for our feedback to be heard. And as paying customers, our feedback should definitely be more important than that of people who arent playing the game.
Here's an interesting situation you might find yourself in.

A large portion of the player-base left due to lack of high-end content or PvP options (i.e. territory control).

If you wanted those features now, a large portion of the current userbase doesn't want the latter. There are people who are vehemently opposed to the idea. However, if a few people in the STO community wanted it and a large portion of former subscribers were waiting for it, why not listen and get those people (and others back)?

Our community really has groupthink sometimes. We tend to base ideas off each other and don't want to rock the boat too often. I know I do. However, groupthink is counter-productive to a creative environment. It kills businesses when they stop innovating because the employees (and in this case the forum customers) want a very narrow set of things. Getting outside opinion and free market research from the player council was a good idea to break groupthink. It made sense from a business standpoint. You can't let yourself get stymied in your current conditions and resign yourself to whoever is left subscribing a year from now.

Anyways, that's why I liked the idea of the council. It wasn't so much about some people being more equal to others - it was about getting outside research for free while getting some publicity too (i.e. STOked is still a good source for STO news but it's also an unofficial advertisement each week).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
12-14-2010, 01:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
Here's an interesting situation you might find yourself in.

A large portion of the player-base left due to lack of high-end content or PvP options (i.e. territory control).
Are you privy to some insider information regarding the specific number of people who left because of this specific issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
However, if a few people in the STO community wanted it and a large portion of former subscribers were waiting for it, why not listen and get those people (and others back)?
What guarantee do you have that former players would actually return if X change was made?

The whole idea of going outside the current paying customers for feedback sounds pretty random at best. People who arent currently playing have no stake in the game, and there is no way to know whether they will actually come back or not, or if their just bitter and screwing with you for fun.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
12-14-2010, 01:18 PM
You're also making the assumption that all paying customers frequent these forums. Which is simply false. StormShade (I believe it was him) has said as much in the past, saying only something like 10% of active subscribers are also active forum users.

Anyway, the argument is moot. The Council is no longer an active project.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
12-14-2010, 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The.Grand.Nagus View Post
Are you privy to some insider information regarding the specific number of people who left because of this specific issue?
I'm not privy to anything you're not privy to.

However, I remember this feature requested by a lot of people who aren't here anymore (and quite a few were banned). There are a lot of people that have left the community over time who felt their wishes weren't being heard anymore.

Quote:
What guarantee do you have that former players would actually return if X change was made?
None, of course. However, there's no guarantee that what the community wants will bring in more subscribers (though some features like the Sector Revamp and Foundry sound tantalizing enough that I hope I see a lot of the old players back).

Quote:
The whole idea of going outside the current paying customers for feedback sounds pretty random at best. People who arent currently playing have no stake in the game, and there is no way to know whether they will actually come back or not, or if their just bitter and screwing with you for fun.
If you want more subscribers, logic would say you have to get opinion from non-subscribers at some point. The forums can only be posted on if your sub has anymore time left.

This means you have to do market research - which is partially done for free by the player council. This wouldn't supplant current customers in any way - their voice is just as valid. Perhaps, the devs would have only made decisions based on things that both groups wanted?

We'll never know. A small portion of the community was too busy trolling third-party sites and calling council members names. We'll never know now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
12-14-2010, 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borticus View Post
You're also making the assumption that all paying customers frequent these forums. Which is simply false.
I'm not sure who your actually talking to since you didnt quote anyone, but if it was me then it is actually you who have made the false assumption. I am well aware that the majority of players in any MMO do not use the forum. However, the most likely place a paying customer will go to voice their opinion outisde the game is the official forum. So while only a minority of players actually use the forum, the vast majority of those who are going to give any out of game feedback do so on the forums.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
12-14-2010, 01:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darren_Kitlor
I'm not privy to anything you're not privy to.

However, I remember this feature requested by a lot of people who aren't here anymore (and quite a few were banned). There are a lot of people that have left the community over time who felt their wishes weren't being heard anymore.


None, of course. However, there's no guarantee that what the community wants will bring in more subscribers (though some features like the Sector Revamp and Foundry sound tantalizing enough that I hope I see a lot of the old players back).


If you want more subscribers, logic would say you have to get opinion from non-subscribers at some point. The forums can only be posted on if your sub has anymore time left.

This means you have to do market research - which is partially done for free by the player council. This wouldn't supplant current customers in any way - their voice is just as valid. Perhaps, the devs would have only made decisions based on things that both groups wanted?

We'll never know. A small portion of the community was too busy trolling third-party sites and calling council members names. We'll never know now.
That all sounds really good, but unfortunately it resulted in the NGE for SWG. And while your right that we'll never know what may have happened, I can say that I have personally be pleased with how things have turned out once Dan took over, and really could not imagine what alternative course they could have taken between then and now that would have been more bennificial to the game.
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