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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
01-19-2011, 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
That's not a Godwin, canon nazi is like grammarnazi it's not really comparing someone to the nazis [...]
I know what it's supposed to say - but if a comparison to nazis is not part of it, why include the term? As you said, it is to insult or ridicule the other person, so it specifically relies on the negativity that comes with the word and its meaning.

Whether you're calling someone a grammar nazi or claim that "he's as strict as a nazi when it comes to grammar" is the same thing - thus Godwin's Law applies to both.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Thus I question whether the greathall is a proper military location and not just somewhere with a small military add on.
So let me get this straight - you take a few negligible engine-based limitations as a reason to dispute the Great Hall's status, despite it clearly being labeled as such? And not even that, now it's supposed to be "somewhere" with a "small military add-on", despite clearly being in the midst of the capital city and containing the entire High Council?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
See all you need is some creativity and an open mind, pretty Trek in spirit if you ask me.
Quite a paradox, to claim that it is Trek to take the feeling of the show out of the game. Also, creativity and grasping at straws just because you want to usurp Orion uniqueness are two different things.

All this talk just makes me think it was a mistake to give the Klingon faction the Alien CharGen in the first place, considering that all it does is serve as a disruption for the style we know from the shows. Be it because it is abused to play Romulans and Humans, or because now there's a drive to "steal" what makes Orion culture visually distinctive.

KDF got way too many species. Unfortunately it is far too late to roll back this mistake now.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
01-19-2011, 08:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I know what it's supposed to say - but if a comparison to nazis is not part of it, why include the term? As you said, it is to insult or ridicule the other person, so it specifically relies on the negativity that comes with the word and its meaning.

Whether you're calling someone a grammar nazi or claim that "he's as strict as a nazi when it comes to grammar" is the same thing - thus Godwin's Law applies to both.
Frankly I think Godwin's law is for political or social debates/arguments, Grammar-Nazi is just an insult because Nazis are bad and perceived as really strict from the Aryan thing and it's shorter and easier to say than obsessive. Like the Church of England bishops who called the General Synod fascist for allowing women bishops, or Obama being called a Nazi for healthcare, that's a Godwin, they're trying to call the Synod and Obama evil like the Nazis, who were evil because of their crimes, so their actions are being compared to Nazi crimes, while you were just being called stuck up basically in a lazy manner and one that is admittedly abusive of history. Anyway let's leave the Godwin thing, I think it's overused others think it's applicable to any use of the word Nazi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
So let me get this straight - you take a few negligible engine-based limitations as a reason to dispute the Great Hall's status, despite it clearly being labeled as such? And not even that, now it's supposed to be "somewhere" with a "small military add-on", despite clearly being in the midst of the capital city and containing the entire High Council?
Alright to explain better take the courtyard, if I were doing it you'd beam into the the courtyard and be able to walk into greathall or a barracks(boffs, ground gear) or a war ministry building for gettings ships and ship equipment, and something like feasting hall for promotion ceremonies and buying the "blackmarket" gear. If I were completely unlimited you'd be beaming around a city going to these places from transporter pads.
As Cryptic was limited in what they could do(probably more by time though than engine considering the cities in CO) the greathall must compact all those things into one so it's not exclusively military but also serves a political, ceremonial and relaxation functions. I know the show has Klingons being often one dimensional and at the best of the times two, but I doubt even Klingons would have the political heads of their Empire hanging around in a military base all the time. They would likely be in a something like a Klingon parliament building, but being Klingon there would be very heavy security which could take the form of the military "add on" in the greathall, so the greathall could actually be more politically oriented than military if it could be fully fleshed out. Sort of like it's a Parliament with a War Ministry and it's security force attached that's then also connected to feasting hall. I also certainly didn't mean it's just "somewhere" on Qo'nos but with my manner of wording things I can see how you viewed it like that, I meant that it's a place that isn't a mil base but some hybrid.

This is different from ESD which is a military base just with a diplomatic attachment and probably a scientific one too along with the leisure facilities for everyone to chill at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Quite a paradox, to claim that it is Trek to take the feeling of the show out of the game. Also, creativity and grasping at straws just because you want to usurp Orion uniqueness are two different things.
That depends on if something feels Trek to a person because it obsessively sticks to what is on screen, or the sentiments of Trek about open mindedness, equality etc. For you Trek appears to be more about "was a Klingon ever seen on screen infatuated with elements of another culture", than my "is it possible a Klingon could become infatuated with elements of another culture?". You go for sticking to scripts where as I go for whether something can fit the sentiments,ideals, the spirit of Trek and if it's plausible in Trek.

You've frankly lost me on the grasping at straws, is it really that hard to conceive there are Klingons who are about more than "honour, blood, waaaaghhhh(warhammer 40k ref)", and maybe are fans of Orion or other races clothing, even if it's not warlike gear maybe even just because it's skimpyness is so different from normal klingon stuff. Take General Chang and Chancellor Gorkon, despite Chang being a warmonger he comes across as a warrior poet compared to later Klingons being Orks, and Gorkon was very civil. Maybe there are Klingons who view that past as the end of a golden age, have tired of continual fussing over "honour" and seek to be more cultured by adopting things from all over and maybe coming up with Klingon variations. Not saying Klingons shouldn't be honour bound warriors, but that honour bound warriors can be open minded and don't need so much brutality.

It's not me grasping at straws, but you running around trying to shut every door.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
All this talk just makes me think it was a mistake to give the Klingon faction the Alien CharGen in the first place, considering that all it does is serve as a disruption for the style we know from the shows. Be it because it is abused to play Romulans and Humans, or because now there's a drive to "steal" what makes Orion culture visually distinctive.

KDF got way too many species. Unfortunately it is far too late to roll back this mistake now.
And here we come to what you likely really care about, probably not preserving Orion uniqueness but maintaining perceived KDF uniformity for your own personal "immersion". The thing is opening up the Orion outfits is no more theft of Orion culture than an Englishwoman wearing a qipao is stealing Chinese culture, she's wearing Chinese culture, when someone sees her in it, they know she's at least a fan of that small part of Chinese culture not that she's trying to usurp it.

So then if an Englishwoman wants to wear a qipao is she trying to steal Chinese culture?

Hmmm I've got a great idea for a few foundry episodes now, thanks!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
01-20-2011, 06:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
They would likely be in a something like a Klingon parliament building, but being Klingon there would be very heavy security which could take the form of the military "add on" in the greathall, so the greathall could actually be more politically oriented than military if it could be fully fleshed out. Sort of like it's a Parliament with a War Ministry and it's security force attached that's then also connected to feasting hall.
That's exactly how I saw the Great Hall in the game, actually.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
For you Trek appears to be more about "was a Klingon ever seen on screen infatuated with elements of another culture", than my "is it possible a Klingon could become infatuated with elements of another culture?". You go for sticking to scripts where as I go for whether something can fit the sentiments,ideals, the spirit of Trek and if it's plausible in Trek.
Thing is that it will no longer look like Trek if "what is plausible" (which is in the eye of the beholder) becomes the norm, as it will be if you open the possibilities, even if it's just because a large part of the playerbase wants maximum pixel eroticism. Just look at what happened to ESD with all those high-heeled, miniskirt, belly-top wearing go-go girls. Does that look like Starfleet? Do you really want Qo'noS to look alike? Is it wrong that there is at least one faction in the game that somewhat looks like an accurate representation of its culture(s) from the shows?

For the Orions their current look fits well because that is their culture, and that is what makes them memorable and unique. If you take the clothing away, all we're left with visually would be green-skinned Humans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
[...] just because it's skimpyness is so different from normal klingon stuff.
Klingons already have skimpy stuff in canon. It just looks different. Why does every species have to wear the same stuff? This is contradictory to the very same diversity you seem to think you champion.

And yes, smooth silks do go against Klingon culture, especially considering that they make their wearer look like a toy'wI'a. Not everyone in Klingon society is a warrior, but to think that someone would voluntarily don this kind of garment because she likes it is comparable to walking around in a fetish harness in your hometown.

I just think customization should represent the standard range of clothing for the respective character, not cater to extreme exceptions. Because otherwise the exceptions will become the rule. And this would look bull. Again, see ESD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
And here we come to what you likely really care about, probably not preserving Orion uniqueness but maintaining perceived KDF uniformity for your own personal "immersion".
Both, actually. I am of the opinion that every species has the right to retain its unique defining features. Partly because it's what makes them special, partly because that is what makes people play them, and partly because this is simply how it was done in the shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
The thing is opening up the Orion outfits is no more theft of Orion culture than an Englishwoman wearing a qipao is stealing Chinese culture, she's wearing Chinese culture, when someone sees her in it, they know she's at least a fan of that small part of Chinese culture not that she's trying to usurp it.
Actually, that line was referring to the player, not the character. They want bikinis because they dislike their own species' range of clothing and because they want to show off more skin, not because their characters have any reason to wear them. The most such players do it come up with some half-cooked excuse for such deviant behavior, naturally without thinking about the consequences this would really have for the character.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
01-20-2011, 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
That's exactly how I saw the Great Hall in the game, actually.

Thing is that it will no longer look like Trek if "what is plausible" (which is in the eye of the beholder) becomes the norm, as it will be if you open the possibilities, even if it's just because a large part of the playerbase wants maximum pixel eroticism. Just look at what happened to ESD with all those high-heeled, miniskirt, belly-top wearing go-go girls. Does that look like Starfleet? Do you really want Qo'noS to look alike? Is it wrong that there is at least one faction in the game that somewhat looks like an accurate representation of its culture(s) from the shows?
ESD looks wacky (which doesn't really bother me but not everyone's as good at just ignoring things as me, a talent I was forced to develop after raging at silly things in films) because there is quite a high player:npc ratio, whereas there are very few in comparison on Qo'nos, so even if everyone played a bikini clad female it wouldn't be half as noticeable as ESDs costume antics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
For the Orions their current look fits well because that is their culture, and that is what makes them memorable and unique. If you take the clothing away, all we're left with visually would be green-skinned Humans.
It's definitely a big part of Orions but I don't think the uniqueness matters, in game Vulcans sole difference from humans is pointy ears as the "logical" can only be expressed through RP(for players), they'd still be Orions, the clothing would still be theirs, just others would have adopted it, for instance it'd very likely be called "Orion xxx" in the character editor(if it weren't I'd campagin), and I'm thinking most will recognise it as Orion clothing and not a generic Leia bikini.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Klingons already have skimpy stuff in canon. It just looks different. Why does every species have to wear the same stuff? This is contradictory to the very same diversity you seem to think you champion.
Every species won't have to wear the same stuff, they can just wear it if they want to, that difference is crucial, admittedly I would be surprised if we didn't see at least 30% females wearing it. More a champion of options but also openness, and more options is inherently more diverse than less. If everyone did flock to the bikini, well I'm that's my efforts for more options sucessful, even with a minor problem on the diversity front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
And yes, smooth silks do go against Klingon culture, especially considering that they make their wearer look like a toy'wI'a. Not everyone in Klingon society is a warrior, but to think that someone would voluntarily don this kind of garment because she likes it is comparable to walking around in a fetish harness in your hometown.
More like walking around in foreign swimwear, to the more "waaaghhh honour" klingons it's still contemptible, but probably regarded as self indultgent to decadent instead of perverted. I feel it's quite believable that there's a few klingons(in proportion to the size of the KDF, there could still be a lot of them in number if not percentage) who diverge from the norm and indulge in foreign things, but by proving themselves to still be honourable warriors despite this, they are tolerated and shown respect for their skill if perhaps not much liked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I just think customization should represent the standard range of clothing for the respective character, not cater to extreme exceptions. Because otherwise the exceptions will become the rule. And this would look bull. Again, see ESD.
Thing is you can't really define the standard range of clothing for the respective character, you can do it for their culture or their species, but a person is not a culture or a species, attempting to pin down characters in such a manner would be almost stereotypical.
A klingon could be one the most honourable and skilled warriors in the empire but in her time not spent pwning feds with a batleth she prances about in Qipaos and Orion clothing, listening to old Vulcan music, the off duty explanation. Alternatively or additonally because she's such a badarse and it's not like klingon gear stops a phaser blast she wears a Qipao/Orion bikini into combat, her superiors might be a bit peeved but there's a war on and other than that she's an exemplary klingon so they leave it be.
Okay so most won't come up with a backstory for why, but most people never even come up with any backstory to a character or at least a visible one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Both, actually. I am of the opinion that every species has the right to retain its unique defining features. Partly because it's what makes them special, partly because that is what makes people play them, and partly because this is simply how it was done in the shows.
Plenty of people still play the canon fed races even if an alien is a better min-max and there are no fancy unique outfits, I like the shows (ofc) but one of my big problems with them was this pigeonholing of alien races, yes it's much easier to get lots of aliens in if you make them simple and not complex but it reduces them to caricatures, that must then be stuck to or the wrath of canon defenders be invoked. Granted with STs races being people with bits stuck on they wouldn't be all the special anymore but it's not like everyone else is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Actually, that line was referring to the player, not the character. They want bikinis because they dislike their own species' range of clothing and because they want to show off more skin, not because their characters have any reason to wear them. The most such players do it come up with some half-cooked excuse for such deviant behavior, naturally without thinking about the consequences this would really have for the character.
"It's hawt!" is likely a big part of the motivation for many who want this, but there's not really a problem with that imo. Now when we come to in world consequences for the character it honestly might not amount to much, the very fact we've got a bunch of species on Qo'nos could show that the klingons former friendship with the federation has mellowed them a bit when it comes to this kind of thing.

Like is it the motions of a ritual that matter to STO Klingons or the intent of a ritual? That someone dresses like their trying to be an honourable warrior or that they actually are one?

And it is after all the NPCs who represent the normal Klingons, our characters are the "special" ones like in most games, we're the Picards, Kirks, Worfs not the one episode appearance captains. We're allowed to be quirky or...strange.

And now I have an urge to make a thread asking for a Qipao to be added to the formal wear set, it kinda sorta looks like one but not enough.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
01-20-2011, 11:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
It's definitely a big part of Orions but I don't think the uniqueness matters, in game Vulcans sole difference from humans is pointy ears as the "logical" can only be expressed through RP(for players), they'd still be Orions, the clothing would still be theirs, just others would have adopted it, for instance it'd very likely be called "Orion xxx" in the character editor(if it weren't I'd campagin)
It's not the same, actually. Starfleet Vulcans are part of Starfleet, of course they wear the same clothing. Non-Starfleet Vulcans (which we do not have in STO) would actually wear different stuff, as you can see in several ENT, TOS and TNG episodes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
[...] and I'm thinking most will recognise it as Orion clothing and not a generic Leia bikini.
Really now? I doubt that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
[...] I would be surprised if we didn't see at least 30% females wearing it
More like 60%. Again, see ESD how people dress up their females.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
If everyone did flock to the bikini, well I'm that's my efforts for more options sucessful, even with a minor problem on the diversity front.
And on the Trek front, for we would loose the atmosphere Qo'noS managed to retain so far. Again: Is it really necessary to copy the whacky look of Starfleet? Can't we have one faction that looks like it did in the shows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
More like walking around in foreign swimwear, to the more "waaaghhh honour" klingons it's still contemptible, but probably regarded as self indultgent to decadent instead of perverted.
No. If you dress like a slave then you will be treated like a slave. If you do it voluntarily, something's wrong with your sense of honor. It's as simple as that. Don't you think this would have repercussions on how other Klingons deal with you?

And just having "some" backstory doesn't make it more believable. You just can't justify everything, and sometimes trying to do so is actually more facepalm-worthy than just rolling without any excuse at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Thing is you can't really define the standard range of clothing for the respective character, you can do it for their culture or their species, but a person is not a culture or a species, attempting to pin down characters in such a manner would be almost stereotypical.
Which I think is necessary. Look, there's only one of two ways here:
A) achieve total freedom in customization
B) preserve the style of the faction and the atmosphere of the game

You can only go one way. They are not compatible. Almost every player doesn't care about making his or her character fit into the setting, instead going by what he or she thinks is cool or sexy based on their respective preference as a 21st century Human. This game is not about 21st century Humans, and if you let people dress however they want you're sacrificing the atmosphere of the show. You're going to loose the "Trek". Might as well play Second Life or whatever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Now when we come to in world consequences for the character it honestly might not amount to much, the very fact we've got a bunch of species on Qo'nos could show that the klingons former friendship with the federation has mellowed them a bit when it comes to this kind of thing.
Maybe you should take a look at STO's faction page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Like is it the motions of a ritual that matter to STO Klingons or the intent of a ritual? That someone dresses like their trying to be an honourable warrior or that they actually are one?
Both, in a way. Everyone expects the motions, the intent on the other hand matters to the ones that believe in tradition and honour.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
And it is after all the NPCs who represent the normal Klingons, our characters are the "special" ones like in most games, we're the Picards, Kirks, Worfs not the one episode appearance captains. We're allowed to be quirky or...strange.
Heh. I see this kind or justification pop up every single time when such a topic is discussed. And I don't buy it. Sure, I can see why some people absolutely want to play the special snowflake and the Mary Sue that can achieve everything and is so awesome the whole galaxy loves him/her, but in the end this is an MMO, and other player characters need to be taken into consideration as well.

"If everyone is special, nobody is."

I'm quite happy with my - so I believe - interesting and believable characters without the need to make them stand out of the crowd. You can be unique without being a Picard, a Kirk or a Worf. Every person has his own story, his own struggle. You don't need to have the entire galaxy know of it to make it exciting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
01-20-2011, 11:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
It's not the same, actually. Starfleet Vulcans are part of Starfleet, of course they wear the same clothing. Non-Starfleet Vulcans (which we do not have in STO) would actually wear different stuff, as you can see in several ENT, TOS and TNG episodes.
The Orions are in the KDF though, we can say they're allied and really not in it, but I think it's stretching. Do the Vulcans have unique off duty clothes? Can't really find anything on it and used my char slots, if they don't then that's another thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Really now? I doubt that.
Since for however many months only the Orions have been able to wear it, I'm certain all but new players will, call it Orion in the editor even they will.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
More like 60%. Again, see ESD how people dress up their females.
I rarely ever see much more than two dozen people on Qo'nos, maybe half are females, even with a bit over half of them wearing the bikini that isn't changing much, and frankly I very much doubt there'd be a rush to play KDF because they all get bikinis, and even now all Orion females don't wear bikinis, most maybe but not all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
And on the Trek front, for we would loose the atmosphere Qo'noS managed to retain so far. Again: Is it really necessary to copy the whacky look of Starfleet? Can't we have one faction that looks like it did in the shows?
No you would lose the atmosphere, the greathall still looks Klingons, there's still going to be lots of Klingon NPCs, klingon music. In a quick beam down early hours to Qo'nos I saw 6 aliens, 5 klingon(2 lib borg), 2 joined trill(with mine 3), 5 orions(2 of them not even wearing a single bit of bikini), 2 Leatheans and a Nausicaan.
Now later in the day I would expect to see more orions and aliens proportionally, but even when I've flown through space infoing every captain Klingons are still around a quarter of the numbers, sometimes Orions have been half of what I see, but so have Klingons. The Empire is hardly overrun by dirty furriners.
The Empire of the shows is also not the Empire of this game, a long time has passed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
No. If you dress like a slave then you will be treated like a slave. If you do it voluntarily, something's wrong with your sense of honor. It's as simple as that. Don't you think this would have repercussions on how other Klingons deal with you?
Did you watch ENT? The STO female Orions seem to be much more like the ones who tried to take over the Enterprise there, than actual slave girls. Probably some Orion females are actual slaves and not spies/saboteurs, but the issue is left muddied from ENT. Having seen female Orions in STO ordering around male NPCs I'm going with ENTs interpretation of them being true in STO.

Now if a Klingon thinks there is something wrong with the character's sense of honour, then they should stop being a coward, say so and accept the consequences, there'll be repercussions alright...for them. See it's not hard to think through this kind of thing if you're at least willing to try.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
And just having "some" backstory doesn't make it more believable. You just can't justify everything, and sometimes trying to do so is actually more facepalm-worthy than just rolling without any excuse at all.
I can't justify absolutely everything there is, but I can justify this, just never to you for no matter what is said you aren't going to change your opinion on it unless a new Trek series was released and we saw a klingon in a bikini(Orion/Earth w/e) or fine silk dress.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Which I think is necessary. Look, there's only one of two ways here:
A) achieve total freedom in customization
B) preserve the style of the faction and the atmosphere of the game
C) You learn to tolerate and ignore things like most other people manage when they come across something that bugs them? If I can deal with the silly characters made in ****, that terrible "The Core" film, and 3 foot tall aliens here so can you.
D) Start up that old campaign to get choose what other peoples uniforms appear as.
E) Campaign to get "roleplay" instances added that you have to tick a box in options to visit and where everyone at least wears the STO uniforms and Klingon battlegear, might be possible might not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
You can only go one way. They are not compatible. Almost every player doesn't care about making his or her character fit into the setting, instead going by what he or she thinks is cool or sexy based on their respective preference as a 21st century Human. This game is not about 21st century Humans, and if you let people dress however they want you're sacrificing the atmosphere of the show. You're going to loose the "Trek". Might as well play Second Life or whatever.
More like some don't care about fitting the setting, and some don't care about fitting your vision of the setting and why should they? Also seriously "by what he or she thinks is cool or sexy based on their respective preference as a 21st century Human", are they supposed to go by their preference as an imaginative 25th century human? All ST springs from the minds of 20th and 21st century humans, that kind of demand on people is a bit much don't you think.
Second Life might actually be a good fit for you if want "immersion" and "atmosphere" with it's Trek roleplayers. Because here you'll never really have the atmosphere of the show, such rigidity just isn't for most people.
Well you could also get a group that roleplays on each other's bridges with properly dressed boffs, a dose of atmosphere for you, a dose of fun harmless fun for everyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Maybe you should take a look at STO's faction page.
Which bit, the bit where the Klingon talks about allies? That goes against me how? Oh no the Klingons are in charge of the alliance and conquered the Gorn, so xenophobic! Clearly my argument is disproved... or not. If the Orions/Letheans/Nausicaans attempted to withdraw from the alliance, they'd probably get attacked but that's not uncommon in Earth wars so doesn't prove anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Both, in a way. Everyone expects the motions, the intent on the other hand matters to the ones that believe in tradition and honour.
Right and the ones to whom intent matters most, won't really be too bothered by what you wear or if you screw up a ritual a little, the others you can have a backstory of having sucessfully challenged warding off others from trying to disparage you for trivialities. Or perhaps in the 20 or so years the Klingons were allied with Feds, and 15 or so Klingons with Orions like I said before, a countercultural movement has sprung up, and perhaps someone who's risen to a powerful position in a notable greathouse is in this movement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Heh. I see this kind or justification pop up every single time when such a topic is discussed. And I don't buy it. Sure, I can see why some people absolutely want to play the special snowflake and the Mary Sue that can achieve everything and is so awesome the whole galaxy loves him/her, but in the end this is an MMO, and other player characters need to be taken into consideration as well.


"If everyone is special, nobody is."

I'm quite happy with my - so I believe - interesting and believable characters without the need to make them stand out of the crowd. You can be unique without being a Picard, a Kirk or a Worf. Every person has his own story, his own struggle. You don't need to have the entire galaxy know of it to make it exciting.

Actually as an MMO pretty much everyone is a Mary Sue, it tends to take either BIG raids or mass world pvp to avoid that and even then. How many ships have you destroyed? People killed?
Loads of video game characters are thus "Mary Sues" a term I feel is even more overused than Godwin's Law. In the Halo series Master Chief is pretty much the saviour of humanity and the galaxy, the covenant split was required to win but he did save all life in the Galaxy more than once. People like being amazing heroes, that's fine if you prefer being like Captain Tryla Scott, but I'm betting most people want to be like Picard.
I actually don't think wearing funny outfits would make a character a Mary Sue, having determind that no not everyone loves for them and they probably have to go that extra mile to prove themselves, rather than everything falling easily into their laps.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
"If everyone is special, nobody is."
Oh well that's non single player games for you, not much of a big deal and with STO's instancing it's much less of a problem than in other games, I won't ever see you stopping the Devidians and you won't see me doing it, unlike some quest chain in WoW that doesn't end in a dungeon run.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
01-21-2011, 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
The Orions are in the KDF though, we can say they're allied and really not in it, but I think it's stretching.
Not really. It's pretty clear in the Path to 2409.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Do the Vulcans have unique off duty clothes?
Player character ones? I don't think so. But they do exist for NPCs. If you want to have them as unique off duty costumes, I suppose a thread in the C-Store forum would be appropriate. It'd be justified, anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Since for however many months only the Orions have been able to wear it, I'm certain all but new players will, call it Orion in the editor even they will.
Just because something is named a certain way won't change people's perception of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
No you would lose the atmosphere, the greathall still looks Klingons, there's still going to be lots of Klingon NPCs, klingon music.
Yeah sure, just like ESD looks like Starfleet? Oh, wait, it doesn't. Player characters are an integral part of the world, and if you have all of them run around in bikinis then it simply changes how the world looks like.
In any case, yes, I would lose the atmosphere. That said, given that this is a Star Trek game, I am now left to wonder what other atmosphere there could be?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Did you watch ENT? The STO female Orions seem to be much more like the ones who tried to take over the Enterprise there, than actual slave girls. Probably some Orion females are actual slaves and not spies/saboteurs, but the issue is left muddied from ENT. Having seen female Orions in STO ordering around male NPCs I'm going with ENTs interpretation of them being true in STO.
You misunderstood. We are not talking about Orions here. We are talking about how -Klingons- (or other species) would be treated if they dress like slaves.

One of my characters is an Orion as well and am using the exact same interpretation of background: http://www.startrekonline.com/charac...s/1181978/view
In fact, I've got her as a player character and my Klingon's BO simultaneously, effectively leading a double life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Now if a Klingon thinks there is something wrong with the character's sense of honour, then they should stop being a coward, say so and accept the consequences, there'll be repercussions alright...for them. See it's not hard to think through this kind of thing if you're at least willing to try.
It's not very "professional" to take the NPCs ignorance as acceptance just because they are not scripted to react based on what a player wears. That's the same kind of flawed logic that supposedly led many WoW players to believe it's perfectly okay to run around in the midst of Stormwind or Darnassus with freshly summoned demons despite this being outlawed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
I can't justify absolutely everything there is, but I can justify this, just never to you for no matter what is said you aren't going to change your opinion on it unless a new Trek series was released and we saw a klingon in a bikini(Orion/Earth w/e) or fine silk dress.
Yes. Sorry that I am basing my arguments on what we know about a culture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
C) You learn to tolerate and ignore things like most other people manage when they come across something that bugs them? If I can deal with the silly characters made in ****, that terrible "The Core" film, and 3 foot tall aliens here so can you.
D) Start up that old campaign to get choose what other peoples uniforms appear as.
E) Campaign to get "roleplay" instances added that you have to tick a box in options to visit and where everyone at least wears the STO uniforms and Klingon battlegear, might be possible might not.
Since "C" is the same as "A" and "D" and "E" are not going to happen (though I did in fact campaign for "D" just yesterday) I don't see how those are supposed to be options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
are they supposed to go by their preference as an imaginative 25th century human?
As roleplayers? Yes, that's the entire idea of "playing a role", no? Of course I can understand that people won't give a s**t when they do not care about the setting anyways, but hey, you started to argue that it would in fact make sense in-universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Which bit, the bit where the Klingon talks about allies?
The bit where the Klingon clearly contradicts your stance on their view on the Federation, for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Right and the ones to whom intent matters most, won't really be too bothered by what you wear [...]
What kind of logic is that? Those are the ones who will be pis*ed the most because you clearly do not even have the intent to wear something appropriate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
Actually as an MMO pretty much everyone is a Mary Sue
As I said, I take pride in being the exception then, and that my characters actually -fit in-.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mockeryangel
I actually don't think wearing funny outfits would make a character a Mary Sue
If the normal rules of the setting do not apply for them? Sounds pretty Mary Sue for me.

I see we won't be getting nowhere with this debate, though. Our "perception" of the setting clearly varies too much, and likewise our opinion regarding the atmosphere of the game. I simply believe in unique differences, be it between factions or species, whilst you are apparently okay with everybody being the same. That's a fundamental conflict we won't be able to bridge regardless of how long we continue to argue, so we may as well stop at this point.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
01-22-2011, 02:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I see we won't be getting nowhere with this debate, though. Our "perception" of the setting clearly varies too much, and likewise our opinion regarding the atmosphere of the game. I simply believe in unique differences, be it between factions or species, whilst you are apparently okay with everybody being the same. That's a fundamental conflict we won't be able to bridge regardless of how long we continue to argue, so we may as well stop at this point.
Until I got to this bit I was going to go through your post point by point but I agree that we'll never come to a conclusion either of us will agree on and since this is now pretty much a two person thread continuing would be unlikely to sway devs either way. If this issue pops up again though I expect we'll probably both be back at it.
I believe in differences between societies just not ones that are immutable and clothes aren't something I view as unique in the same manner as you, to go into detail on my views would take too long so I'm not going to bother.
I'm okay with everyone having the same options to me that's fairness, and I can't bring myself to ever not go against something that seems unfair, not that I'm fine with everyone being the same though if it ends up like that because of personal choice I can't say I'd be bothered by it.
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