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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Are you serious Cryptic? At what point did you think these were well designed, polished and ready to play for the general population. I have never disliked an instance in any game as much as I have disliked these 2... Full of terrible pulls, drones pull everything for miles, attack a group of 8 and your fighting 40 that port in... Takes 3 hours minimum for a GOOD group to clear.. not a pug, and a pug is the most common form of group in this game because **** instances like this cause people to quit.

Revamp this ****, get rid of the porting in adds, cut the pulls in half and just make **** easier to kill...

I have played many MMO's and I know there is a fine line between hard and fun ( you dont want instances to be to easy) but seriously... you need set aside a NIGHT for these instances...

This is ****ing stupid... fix this ****.. because as people want this borg crap there gonna play this instance and quit this game after 5 hours in the instance..
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
12-21-2010, 09:38 PM
well u see they did revamp it, they made it even harder! lol. the borg move faster now. u telling me u dont want to spend 3 hours on the ground part with a mile distance between spawn points!?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
12-21-2010, 09:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by calibers View Post
Are you serious Cryptic? At what point did you think these were well designed, polished and ready to play for the general population. I have never disliked an instance in any game as much as I have disliked these 2... Full of terrible pulls, drones pull everything for miles, attack a group of 8 and your fighting 40 that port in... Takes 3 hours minimum for a GOOD group to clear.. not a pug, and a pug is the most common form of group in this game because **** instances like this cause people to quit.

Revamp this ****, get rid of the porting in adds, cut the pulls in half and just make **** easier to kill...

I have played many MMO's and I know there is a fine line between hard and fun ( you dont want instances to be to easy) but seriously... you need set aside a NIGHT for these instances...

This is ****ing stupid... fix this ****.. because as people want this borg crap there gonna play this instance and quit this game after 5 hours in the instance..
The STFs are their end game (to make hardcore players who liked the hardcore WoW type raid zones feel at home to a degree.) The difference, these were all beat in less than a week. It took top end Guilds in WoW a couple of MONTHS to beat MC. So in effect, the STFs aren't all that hardcore; BUT, if you're used to soloing everything on a map in 30 minutes, you're in for a shock (ofh, and a standard MC raid usually took 6 to 8 hours IF you were doing good.)

So, based on that citeria, the STFs are probably fine.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
12-21-2010, 09:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
The STFs are their end game (to make hardcore players who liked the hardcore WoW type raid zones feel at home to a degree.) The difference, these were all beat in less than a week. It took top end Guilds in WoW a couple of MONTHS to beat MC. So in effect, the STFs aren't all that hardcore; BUT, if you're used to soloing everything on a map in 30 minutes, you're in for a shock (ofh, and a standard MC raid usually took 6 to 8 hours IF you were doing good.)

So, based on that citeria, the STFs are probably fine.
Well, realistically, they are the equiv of 5 man dungeons in WoW, something you grind to earn badges. By that standard, they are way out of whack.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
12-22-2010, 12:36 AM
STFs are not even close to 5 mans in WoW. Just because it takes 5 players doesn't mean it the trivial equivalent of wow. STFs are more like hard mode bosses of wow. Can't faceroll through start to finish. The cure seems fine to me. And I haven't tried KA so no comment there.

Bring a healer,watch some vids of successful runs, come prepared with consumables and man up. Preparation leads to progression. Much like WoW, the game is easy, its poor players that make it hard. /end mini-rant
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
12-22-2010, 12:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
The STFs are their end game (to make hardcore players who liked the hardcore WoW type raid zones feel at home to a degree.) The difference, these were all beat in less than a week. It took top end Guilds in WoW a couple of MONTHS to beat MC. So in effect, the STFs aren't all that hardcore; BUT, if you're used to soloing everything on a map in 30 minutes, you're in for a shock (ofh, and a standard MC raid usually took 6 to 8 hours IF you were doing good.)

So, based on that citeria, the STFs are probably fine.
Comparing the STF's to Molten Core is like comparing a VW Beetle to a Ferrari.

These are not 40 man raids.. these are 5 man runs..for what should be you 0.5 tier gear.

Instead, what we have is a mass amount of mobs with a ridiculous amount of CC,... the ability to spawn in MORE mobs with MORE CC and nodes to make them invincible, until you manage to run past them into their vastly growing numbers to try to drop the node, before you die and run back from respawn.

A good instance should be doable in a way that nobody dies. It does not mean that nobody will die.. it just means that a well coordinated group can do it. Well, Cryptic likes to think that difficulty means how many times you can force a group to respawn before the end. The AI for the game is garbage, so they throw mass amounts of mobs with high DPS and CC against the players, who beat on them as uselessly as a man trying to destroy an Abrams Tank with his fists.

I am done with STF's until they fix ground combat, because the ground game is 100% pure grade A garbage. This is why Ground PvP is the vast minority of the PvP community.. and this is why every day when I do exploration dailies... when I get a ground mission I warp out.

YOUR GROUND GAME IS PATHETIC....... there is no excuse for it.

Champions Online has a better ground game... walk over to that side of the building and ask those guys what they are doing ...

Do something....
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
12-22-2010, 01:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by calibers View Post
Are you serious Cryptic? At what point did you think these were well designed, polished and ready to play for the general population. I have never disliked an instance in any game as much as I have disliked these 2... Full of terrible pulls, drones pull everything for miles, attack a group of 8 and your fighting 40 that port in... Takes 3 hours minimum for a GOOD group to clear.. not a pug, and a pug is the most common form of group in this game because **** instances like this cause people to quit.

Revamp this ****, get rid of the porting in adds, cut the pulls in half and just make **** easier to kill...

I have played many MMO's and I know there is a fine line between hard and fun ( you dont want instances to be to easy) but seriously... you need set aside a NIGHT for these instances...

This is ****ing stupid... fix this ****.. because as people want this borg crap there gonna play this instance and quit this game after 5 hours in the instance..
I have to agree. I waited a lot of these STF's because I have seen some very nice ones done in CoX and CO.
To my surprise current STF's are pure pain to complete. I hope Cryptic will look into this and restore their main design goal which used to be to have FUN.

Maybe main problem is that generally there are just too much mobs in the maps, endless hordes of Borg.
Also there is problem with ground combat engine in general. It really needs major rework.
There are no tactics, no mobility no creativity possible in current engine.

Also ground weapon dmg's are far too low. We need to be able kill enemy faster. Ultra tech weapons only tickles which does not feel like Star Trek at all. We need crowd control skills and high AEO dmg skills.
Maybe even classic tanking skills. Add Martial Arts and melee weapons to this list and we are looking the game of the year 2011
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8 In agreement
12-22-2010, 02:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tamaskil View Post
I have to agree. I waited a lot of these STF's because I have seen some very nice ones done in CoX and CO.
To my surprise current STF's are pure pain to complete. I hope Cryptic will look into this and restore their main design goal which used to be to have FUN.

Maybe main problem is that generally there are just too much mobs in the maps, endless hordes of Borg.
Also there is problem with ground combat engine in general. It really needs major rework.
There are no tactics, no mobility no creativity possible in current engine.
Sadly, I have to agree. Personally I enjoy good team missions and think that STO definitely needs more stuff that encourages teamwork and socializing, however current STFs (especially The Cure and Khitomer Accord) do NOT encourage people to team up with other humans. Instead, what they encourage is for people to team up with Very Specific Characters that have Very Specific Skills that are used in Very Specific Way.
In other words, at their current version STFs are less encouraging towards socializing and teaming up with other human players, and much more encouraging towards teaming up with advanced bots. Challenges are nice and fun, yet making team activities something that requires such highly specific skill/item selections and similar is "challenging" in wrong way entirely.
Hopefully that upcoming difficulty-selector for STFs will make STFs into something that provides such min-maxing challenge for min-maxers, while at same time allowing rest of us to enjoy team activities without having to plan our characters' skills and activities down to last skill point and down to last footstep
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
12-22-2010, 02:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahm_bomb View Post
STFs are not even close to 5 mans in WoW. Just because it takes 5 players doesn't mean it the trivial equivalent of wow. STFs are more like hard mode bosses of wow. Can't faceroll through start to finish. The cure seems fine to me. And I haven't tried KA so no comment there.
Yes, they aren't the same. Didn't say they were. However, they are far closer to that than any WoW mode. And definitely not close to hard mode bosses.

For STF vs group content, they've got the 5 man thing in common. They pretty much only give badges. Not good badges that give access to better loot, but badges that give the common, for everyone stuff.. More time spent on trash than bosses. And now they've got a decent quest reward, hey, just like pretty much every WoW dungeon has a quest that goes with it.

The raids, on the other hand, require more people. Have multiple bosses, and more time spent on the bosses than killing trash. Have loot tables for each boss. And those drops are better than what you get from non-raids. Well, at least from the newer raids, since Blizzard likes to make older raids (and by older I mean older ones from the latest expansion) pointless by giving better badges for trivial content halfway through an expansion.

In essence, the STFs almost seem to take the worst of both. Less loot that has less impact, with fewer interesting fights, just tons of trash to clear, and it takes some time, not as much as a WoW raid (other than tiny ones), but more than a WoW instance.

And so we do not have good grouping content for casuals or good end game content for raiders.

Edit:

It is worth noting that STO's loot system is not well set up to support raiding either. Most games plan for how to allow raid loot to be better than current stuff, while being able to reign it back in when the next level cap increase happens. Instead of giving an item that gives +critical percentage, a flat number that the only way to top is to increase the value or add another bonus to the item, they give crit rating, a value that, depending on your level, gives a certain amount of +crit. This way, raid stuff can be better but it won't get out of hand. When they do raise the cap, you've got to raid all over again to get back to where you were. And things in the low levels can be worthwhile, might actually get you 5 power, rather than near pointless 1 power.

Admittedly, such raid gear would have an impact on PvP, if you have to raid to get better stuf and there's enough raids with enough progression (so we're safe there with the rate Cryptic adds content). That's always an issue when you mix PvP and PvE. Usually handled by entirely different stats players will want for PvP, thereby making much of the PvE gear worse than PvP gear when it comes to PvP. Sort of what WoW does with its resilience stat.

But all that requires some planning, some forethought.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
12-22-2010, 03:44 AM
I agree to the OP. This is sadly true for all STFs.

Ground combat in general is not the strong point of this game, and unfortunately the STF style mass ground combat is even worse.

I did not play any STF in months and do not plan to change this, as my only motivator would be a rather extrinsic motivation to get Borg set parts rather than an intrinsic motivation to play a particular STF.

Thankfully it seems that the Aegis Set +1 Borg part works best, so I can wait till they totally revamp ground combat and hopefully the STFs as well.

P.S.: Good groups need between 40-60 minutes, no need to overdramatize. Still, the STFs suck.
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