Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 The Anti-Healer-Build?
12-23-2010, 01:36 AM
I could also call this thread "Anti-TSI Build" or "Anti-Era" Build or "Anti-Cruisers Online" build.

This thread is basically created based on my recent experience with fighting exactly such a team.
I was PuGging but found a group to stick with. I was the Science Captain in a Science Vessel, the rest seemed to be mostly Cruisers (I don't even know exactly). We were good at supporting each other and focusing fire, and every PuG match we had was a win (not all easy, but none really close). I know some will say that's like winning the special olympics, but winning is still fun and boosts your ego, and losing the special olympics certianly would not.

Until the last one we did - and I saw familiar names like Era and Linty, IIRC. And we lost, badly, 15:0. NAturally, Ia ssume it's all my fault, I didn't bring the right crowd control abilities and tactics into it.
But there must be a way to crack this (I am sure some even succeeded at it already), and so it got me t hinking - healing might be OP, but let's figure out how to deal with it anyway). Something the below doesn't specifically adress is stuff like the TSI Mine-Spam, maybe that needs its own approach?


They key ingredients against healers sem to be:
- Stuns (Photonic Shockwave, Tri-Cobalt Mines)
- Scramble Sensors
- Splitting Teams up (Tractor Beam Repulsors)
- Massive Spikes

So, what would you say are good builds around this?

Science Vessel loadout :
- Scramble Sensors III
- Photonic Shockwave I
- Tractor Beam Repulsors II
- Transfer shield Strength II
- Hazard Emitters II
- Tractor Beam I
- Polarize Hull I

- Emergency Power to Shields I
- Auxillary to Dampeners I

- High Yield Torpedo I
- Attack Pattern Delta

And for your "bonus" Ensign you might make EptS I , Science Team I or Tactical Team I depending on your ship class.

Equipped with Tri-Cobalt Torpedo and Tri-Cobalt Mine and Quantum Torpedo Launchers, as well as 2 energy weapons of your choice.

Do you think this would work? Anyone flying this type of builds and having made it succesful?

What has more promise? Isolating the healer or isolating the victim? Who is more likely to resist the isolating attempts succesfully? How many ships do you need with pure anti-healer builds? Can one ship do it alone (assuming the rest does the usual teamwork of cross-healing and focused fire?)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
12-23-2010, 02:13 AM
Noooooo Why are you turning TSI into the badguys?

In anycase, the problem with splitting up the team is that it turns into a double sided knife. It only works against teams that have only 1 dedicated healer or 1 DPS, or else you'll need to make sure the rest of your team can keep up with you or else the stragglers will be eaten alive by the other 4.

But yep, those skills are pretty spot on for disrupting heals.

P.S. Also, when it comes to TSI premades most of the other team members excluding the main healer of course are off healers. So when you are focusing down the main healers, the other members can compensate by healing the main healer. The teamwork in which TSI understands their roles and off roles and trusts others to fulfill to the absolute brim is what makes TSI such a successful PvP fleet.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
12-23-2010, 02:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miogaruna View Post
Noooooo Why are you turning TSI into the badguys?
Don't see it as turning TSi into badguys - see it as making the game more interesting and challenging again!

Quote:
It only works against teams that have only 1 dedicated healer or 1 DPS, or else you'll need to make sure the rest of your team can keep up with you or else the stragglers will be eaten alive by the other 4.
Splitting the opponent's team should never lead to splitting your own team, that would probably be disastrous. Of course, enforcing a split without doing that is difficult - how do you stop the other part of the team from catching up?

I had some fun many moons ago with flying an Escort with Tractor Beam Repulsors. Aux2Dampeners/Evasive Maneuvers + TBR can really carry someone far off. If Two or more team mates use this, it should cover more enemies, moving your main target in front of you and keeping the rest of his team at bay.

Maybe Gravity Well also should be added to the list - for use against the other part of the team?
Of course,the more powers we add, the more people we need to actively work together for the specifics of the strategy. Ideally I would like to have a mix of options.

1) PuG friendly "just swap some BOs"
2) Mixed build that isn't useless on its own, no further swaps required.
3) Premade optimized.

Mustrum "May you live in interesting times" Ridcully
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
12-23-2010, 03:21 AM
It's very difficult to pull off due to the level of coordination needed, and the difficulty of using repulsors effectively. It should still be doable, but I would suggest doing it with 2 sci vessels with gravity well, and 2 escorts with repulsors. That way the sci ships can use dual gravity wells to keep most of the enemy team locked down in gravity wells/shocwaved, and the escort using repulsors and their own firepower to push away any stray ship not caught in a gravity well. The entire team should probably stock up on deuterium surplus as well, and the only healers I would trust to keep up with this is the ones I fly with regularily. Ironically that is Era and Healbert
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
12-23-2010, 03:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miogaruna View Post
Noooooo Why are you turning TSI into the badguys?

In anycase, the problem with splitting up the team is that it turns into a double sided knife. It only works against teams that have only 1 dedicated healer or 1 DPS, or else you'll need to make sure the rest of your team can keep up with you or else the stragglers will be eaten alive by the other 4.

But yep, those skills are pretty spot on for disrupting heals.

P.S. Also, when it comes to TSI premades most of the other team members excluding the main healer of course are off healers. So when you are focusing down the main healers, the other members can compensate by healing the main healer. The teamwork in which TSI understands their roles and off roles and trusts others to fulfill to the absolute brim is what makes TSI such a successful PvP fleet.
I think LF have only once come close to actually breaking up a TSI PUG group (4 TSI 1 PUG).. We started out strong and secured a 5-0 lead (multiple of our escorts using TBR), and then TSI adjusted and we lost 7-15.

In hindsight, we should have anticipated TSI switching to TBR resistance
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
12-23-2010, 03:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pjokk
It's very difficult to pull off due to the level of coordination needed, and the difficulty of using repulsors effectively. It should still be doable, but I would suggest doing it with 2 sci vessels with gravity well, and 2 escorts with repulsors. That way the sci ships can use dual gravity wells to keep most of the enemy team locked down in gravity wells/shocwaved, and the escort using repulsors and their own firepower to push away any stray ship not caught in a gravity well. The entire team should probably stock up on deuterium surplus as well, and the only healers I would trust to keep up with this is the ones I fly with regularily. Ironically that is Era and Healbert
Yeah, repulsors are a lot easier to use on a escort than a SV Repulsors/evasive and push them 20k away from the maingroup.

Ofcourse, it takes away from the healing/resist skills, but meh.. Its a escort.. If its focused, and cant run - It will die, regardless of what skills it have.
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# 7
12-23-2010, 03:56 AM
There is no build, no pattern or whatsoever. TSI are highly skilled veterans - they have seen all kind of attempts, I doubt you will be able to suprise them.

All you can do is adapt to the situation. Nobody's perfect, not even Era (very close though ), so there will always be a possible gap to get a kill. SNBs are always nice to have, but don't expect them to make TSI struggle. They have mastered countering it, but it is still a strong ability and if your timing is very good, it will help you for sure.

Repulsor is a good idea, but they will adapt to the situation quickly. If you try, don't remove Era and think that will leave his team without healing (as Santa stated already). Maybe try to push your focus target away from all his teammates and use the few seconds to finish him quickly.

Diversity is your ally - against TSI never stick to a tactic, they will overcome it and take advantage.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
12-23-2010, 03:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelineAaele View Post
In hindsight, we should have anticipated TSI switching to TBR resistance
TSI never changes shields in a PVP match, the majority of us stick with Covariant Cap x 3.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 9
12-23-2010, 04:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miogaruna View Post
TSI never changes shields in a PVP match, the majority of us stick with Covariant Cap x 3.
Wasnt talking about shields..

We used repulsors to break the group apart, and actually took a 5-0 lead.. After that they obviously changed some BOs, because repulsors was a big /fail after that.. lol
Lt. Commander
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# 10
12-23-2010, 04:35 AM
oh wow, i feel like im a part of something awsome here.... -just a little tipsy from the vodka-

ive been in several games (sometimes premades sometimes pugmades) and we just start to fly for fun., its at a point when we realize that we're dying that we then actually start to call heals/targets.

having only 1 or 2 main healers is a huge tactical flaw. 1 healer plus everyone being able to toss out some heals is key now.

i always carry polarize hull for those pesky repulsors, and when i notice a ship using them a lot... i scramble them so they hit their own guys too. or i shockwave them to stop it outright, or i just fly close and get pushed around (using the enemy to help me is a good tactical idea). the nebulas turn rate isnt its strong suit so a good push by a repulsor or 2 allows me to adjust my flight path then i hit the polarize so begin my run.

ill admit, the only hard thing i noticed for us (besides the new armor sets) is the grav well+scramble combo. when we first got hit by it it was fustrating as hell (all those poor science teams being beamed to the enemy ships) so how did we counter it? the moment the grav well got sent, we'd send our own scramble at them to let them get sucked in as well.....

adaptability is the borgs first defence choice for a reason ;P

-tear to me eye for being part of something speical-
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