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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 111
01-08-2011, 01:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefrayl View Post
Who said anything about getting it all for free? I don't know about you, but I've already paid Cryptic a sizeable amount of money for this game. No one picked up the game for free. No one keeps playing for free.
You are right we all paid for the game in the box. A game we all knew had a microtransaction store. It was clear at time of purchase that there were going to be items in that store that were going to have to be paid for to get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefrayl View Post
It's astounding to me that some people actually devoutly defend this behavior of milking every last cent out of customers with 'deals' like this: 'You want an in-game ship? That'll be 2-3x the price of the game itself. Play the game that you already bought, and pay us regularly for time to earn it? Ha! Forget about it'.
You do realize you are now complaining about being forced to play this game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefrayl View Post
I'm thankful that the game is not run by someone like you who doesn't seem to understand the value in open Feedback from customers. We (the community) all may enjoy STO thoroughly, but the game has some pretty negative press out there, and it serves Cryptic well to do what they can about it. Wallet tapping like this for a pay to play game will do NOTHING to alleviate that.
Feedback is one thing. We've seen a lot of good changes to the game based on feed back. This is the first time I can think of that we've seen them make a reversal on the C-Store that will lose them money. I never argued the morality of micro transactions, if you can even call it that when we see ships for 25 bucks. My point in all of this was that we knew what system was in place when we started playing the game and complaining about that system seemed to be to be a total waste of time. I was proved wrong here with this result. Though I am surprised none of you have said I'll believe it when I see it since you all think cryptic is a bunch of liars and thieves.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thefrayl View Post
But, you're right, we should all just shut up and take whatever Cryptic/Atari/STO team does, and we should LIKE IT! Everyone on these forums should be silenced but the Cryptic staff.
I've never told anyone to shut up on here. I've told people they sound like they aren't having fun and maybe they should stop playing. I've told people I think they are wasting their time. People over react here. I dare defy some one who hates the C-Store and they say I'm committing a civil rights violation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefrayl View Post
EDIT: For the record, I've made alot of Cstore purchases. And while I'm still not thrilled by the whole idea of it, I find most of the prices to be fair. It's just these $25 ships where I must draw the line (THIS FAR, NO FURTHER!). It's not that I don't have the money, but it's the principle. Eating this stuff up would only encourage more of it.
I agree totally. I will never buy any ship in the C-Store for 25 dollars. I haven't bought any refits yet because I don't think that's worth the money either. Buying this crap encourages them to make more of it for the same price, and that's the main reason I thought getting upset over this new ship was silly. People bought the Galaxy X, so why wouldn't they make another 25 dollar ship? It could just be that all the outrage when the Galaxy X came out was something they were trying to avoid with this ship. If that is the case maybe I shouldn't be so pessimistic about the developers.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 112
01-08-2011, 02:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidheadjax View Post
I do have to admit, I feel disinclined to sympathize, since they chose to reward what I consider a bad faith move by Cryptic, and of course because of the complaint threads that it's not sufficiently OP for a $25 ship.
In my view taking people's money for this stupid thing and then making it free a week later is bad faith. As far as anyone complaining about not being able to buy an advantage, I could care less what they think. It's $25 bucks for a glorified skin. And that's the way it has to be. Or else we'd start seeing $100 ships in the store.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 113
01-08-2011, 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VVargazm
You are right we all paid for the game in the box. A game we all knew had a microtransaction store. It was clear at time of purchase that there were going to be items in that store that were going to have to be paid for to get.
********.

At the time the game was initially sold, it had been repeatedly and in plain language emphasized that nothing that would have to be paid for was going to have an in-game effect.

Cosmetic items, sure. I bought some. I did, in fact, at one point attempt to bribe the devs with beer to get the Nomad skin into the C-store faster.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 114
01-08-2011, 02:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by squidheadjax View Post
********.

At the time the game was initially sold, it had been repeatedly and in plain language emphasized that nothing that would have to be paid for was going to have an in-game effect.

Cosmetic items, sure. I bought some. I did, in fact, at one point attempt to bribe the devs with beer to get the Nomad skin into the C-store faster.
This, the quotes are available on the forums and are easily searched for. We have already gone through the betrayal of the principles on which the game and CStore was founded by the marketing team as well. If Wargasm is unwilling to do the research however, this is not our problem Squid, it is theirs.

Keep in mind that these principles were brought out by senior staff namely Jackalope here http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?t=23174 and have been frequently referred to without distortion on most of the CStore threads. The statement is clearly written and plainly understandable and has also been pretty much ignored by marketing whenever they seemed to think they could get away with it.

It is incumbent upon us, the subscribers, to protect our investment in the game since marketing seems to be unwilling to do so, hence the complaint threads whenever someone attempts to slide something past.
Judging from DStahl's remarks, they tried to slide it past him as well and he appears to be understandably upset by this item being placed in the CStore against his wishes as the head of STO itself.

Now, it may be impossible for him to follow through with getting the ship ingame for "free" but I appreciate the fact that Mr. Stahl is responding in this fashion and at least making the attempt to fix the issue on our (and his) behalf.

I know that if someone were to attempt to bypass my authority on a project that I was placed in charge of, I would be pretty ticked off myself and I believe Mr. Stahl when he says he was upset about it being for CP only.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 115
01-08-2011, 05:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VVargazm
You are right we all paid for the game in the box. A game we all knew had a microtransaction store. It was clear at time of purchase that there were going to be items in that store that were going to have to be paid for to get.
As Squid has made abundantly clear here, no, it was not clear that there were going to be game changing items in the store like this (Particularlly being exclusive and so pricey). They went back on their word here, a number of times now. Ofcourse we knew there was going to be a Cstore, but NO one knew how very large it would be within 1 year. Afterall, we thought this was a paid subscription game model, not f2p. But, it's now turned out to be a pay to pay to play game, by all rights.

Quote:
You do realize you are now complaining about being forced to play this game?
Reread the quote here a couple times, and I'm really not sure where you're arriving at that conclusion. No one is twisting my arm to play STO. I enjoy it immensely. In fact, I've enjoyed STO more than any other MMO I've played to date (And there has been many). What I'm complaining about is these wallet tapping practices like the Guramba & Galaxy X, when we've already paid for a copy of the game, in addition to our subscription rates (Whatever that may be, it was priced that way for a reason).

Quote:
I've never told anyone to shut up on here. I've told people they sound like they aren't having fun and maybe they should stop playing. I've told people I think they are wasting their time. People over react here. I dare defy some one who hates the C-Store and they say I'm committing a civil rights violation.
Not word for word, no. But insinuating that people are 'crying' or 'whining' about this, when it IS valid feedback (feedback that I now see you actually agree with!). Even after it made the STO team and take a 2nd look at the situation? I'd say thats more or less persuading people to be quiet and stop complaining, because there is no point (but obviously there is).

Quote:
I agree totally. I will never buy any ship in the C-Store for 25 dollars. I haven't bought any refits yet because I don't think that's worth the money either. Buying this crap encourages them to make more of it for the same price, and that's the main reason I thought getting upset over this new ship was silly. People bought the Galaxy X, so why wouldn't they make another 25 dollar ship? It could just be that all the outrage when the Galaxy X came out was something they were trying to avoid with this ship. If that is the case maybe I shouldn't be so pessimistic about the developers.
Well, as the post I linked to before points out, our Executive Producer seems to be quite the voice of reason on this at Cryptic, which is great... With that being said, I'm not sure how it's silly to get upset over something you still strongly disagree with, even if it has happened before. These forums (specifically the C-store and Promotions forum in this case) are here for a reason. I think it would be far more silly of people to simply shrug it off, and let these cash grabbing tactics continue on without so much as a peep.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 116
01-08-2011, 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefrayl View Post
Ofcourse we knew there was going to be a Cstore, but NO one knew how very large it would be within 1 year. Afterall, we thought this was a paid subscription game model, not f2p. But, it's now turned out to be a pay to pay to play game, by all rights.
I just thought it was clear since it was a sub based game with a store that it would be different from both models. Maybe I just expect less of people who want money from me, but I haven't been surprised by anything in the store to date.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefrayl View Post
Reread the quote here a couple times, and I'm really not sure where you're arriving at that conclusion.
This line here, maybe I read more into it then I should have
Quote:
Originally Posted by thefrayl View Post
Play the game that you already bought, and pay us regularly for time to earn it? Ha! Forget about it'.
It just sounded to me like you were complaining about having to play the game to get an item.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefrayl View Post
Not word for word, no. But insinuating that people are 'crying' or 'whining' about this, when it IS valid feedback (feedback that I now see you actually agree with!). Even after it made the STO team and take a 2nd look at the situation? I'd say thats more or less persuading people to be quiet and stop complaining, because there is no point (but obviously there is).
Now maybe I wasn't clear enough on this issue. I am shocked they did take a second look at the pricing here. I did think it was foolish to try and make a case for changing policy on the Guramba. Because I've never seen them cave on anything before. Also because I'm sure there are people who paid for this thing who would have done the grind instead if they new it was going to be an option. In the end though I don't assume to be persuasive enough that my snide remarks would make someone think twice about posting something they feel strongly about. Just as I won't hold my thoughts just because I'm having a lopsided debate with three people here. People you could say are trying to convince me to just shut up as the tone of their posts gets more harsh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thefrayl View Post
... I'm not sure how it's silly to get upset over something you still strongly disagree with, even if it has happened before.
I still think it is a bit silly to be complaining about the C-store in general. It's not going away. But I won't ever say someone complaining about one of these ships or other large item is a waste of time ever again.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 117
01-08-2011, 09:23 AM
My question to you all is this now that you can get it in game what do you think it should cost in game?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 118
01-08-2011, 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethanatos View Post
This, the quotes are available on the forums and are easily searched for. We have already gone through the betrayal of the principles on which the game and CStore was founded by the marketing team as well. If Wargasm is unwilling to do the research however, this is not our problem Squid, it is theirs.
Do the research? Are you kidding me? Those quotes are tossed around like confetti. There's a guy that was posting in this thread that had one of them in his signature. It's not that I'm unaware of what was said. When developers are saying you won't have to pay for anything that has an in game effect, while at the same time they are offering liberated borg captains for life time subs, it was clear to me that their definition of in game effect and mine were different. With all the pre order items that people could choose to by multiple copies of the game to get that all have an in game effect it is clear the real meaning was not literal.

So when I say we all knew what we were in for before launch or purchase, I guess I'm giving people to much credit. I should have said the evidence was all there to see. How much faith can you put in those statements when at the same time they are making them they are using in game effects to move the product and the life time subs? For some reason people quote them like scripture. Now that I think about it, maybe treating like scripture is the way to go since they contradict themselves so much.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 119
01-08-2011, 10:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VVargazm
Do the research? Are you kidding me? Those quotes are tossed around like confetti. There's a guy that was posting in this thread that had one of them in his signature. It's not that I'm unaware of what was said. When developers are saying you won't have to pay for anything that has an in game effect, while at the same time they are offering liberated borg captains for life time subs, it was clear to me that their definition of in game effect and mine were different. With all the pre order items that people could choose to by multiple copies of the game to get that all have an in game effect it is clear the real meaning was not literal.

So when I say we all knew what we were in for before launch or purchase, I guess I'm giving people to much credit. I should have said the evidence was all there to see. How much faith can you put in those statements when at the same time they are making them they are using in game effects to move the product and the life time subs? For some reason people quote them like scripture. Now that I think about it, maybe treating like scripture is the way to go since they contradict themselves so much.
Because the statement regarding ingame effects never related to pre-order specials or marketing gimmicks not related to the CStore is the simple answer.

As far as throwing it around like "scripture" those statements, as well as the inherently contradictory nature of the company are at the heart of most of the actual problems with Cryptic, and have been all along. Of course we are complaining about them. I know I got my LTS at release when none of these revelations had really made themselves known yet. The CStore wasn't really even existent yet though we knew it was on the way and when it did show up, it only had the type of item that Jackalope said would be in it.

I am sure that everyone here is fully aware that Cryptic's marketing and/or CStore departments have been anything but consistent in anything they have ever done. From the "3 free months" debacle shortly after release (assuming I haven't forgotten an earlier episode) they have only gotten worse and less consistent with time. Hopefully now that those running the CStore have attempted to slide one past one of their own executives in charge of STO, some heads will roll and things will start being run more ethically on that end. Wishful thinking on my part most likely in all honesty.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 120
01-08-2011, 11:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethanatos View Post
Because the statement regarding ingame effects never related to pre-order specials or marketing gimmicks not related to the CStore is the simple answer.
That's just splitting hairs. They made the statement that you would not have to pay for game altering items to easy fears of people being forced to pay to experience the full game. Yet at start up the situation was just that. That you were buying these items outside the C-store does matter much. And led me to believe those were going to be the type of things we'd see in the store from time to time.

And to say gimmicks are not related to the store and don't matter means you wouldn't have a problem if they started giving the Excelsior refit away with new subscriptions. Or worse new items with larger effects you can't even get in the store for new subs.
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