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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
12-26-2010, 12:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ID
Cryptic isnt desciding the pricing here, it's ATARI, and ATARI gives Cryptic a budget to work with like any contracting work, it may not include overtime. C-Store is probably a way for the dev's to get paid for their time and effort.
The devs should be rewarded and rewarded good for their hard work. They did an excellent job with the means they get. I won't deny that.

I'm only wondering if the Guramba would have had the same pricetag if it was released as planned with the other Klingon LG ships a few weeks back.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
12-26-2010, 02:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ID
Cryptic isnt desciding the pricing here, it's ATARI, and ATARI gives Cryptic a budget to work with like any contracting work, it may not include overtime. C-Store is probably a way for the dev's to get paid for their time and effort. As a 3D Modeler myself, I know that buidling a basic model from a box can be pretty easy. But to get it just right for a picky customer that will accuse you of sin if you dont get it just right, take a good month or two, for me, and my customers arent that picky. Then there is the skin, or texture/costume. That takes time too, getting the texture to look perfect after Unwrapping to model and paining a texture on it. I dont know if they have texturers and modelers or if its both in one, but it takes time, and I can tell you that staying awake till 5 or 6AM to get something just right so you can sleep easy isnt a cake walk. The dev's dont do that cause they need sleep. Then every morning and during the day Stahl opens the forums and gets to read all of the complaints and hate posts about stuff he has no control over. Remember the caitian race? It was delayed a few times so Highison could get it "just right" so we wouldnt all screech in horror about its defects and accuracy. You see the pressure they work under cause of us?
Neither you nor I know the corporate structure of Cryptic but I believe it is somewhat autonomous as long as the make the overall profits that Atari lays out. The marketing department of Cryptic is most likely directed by Atari to make money by whatever means necessary but there appears to be absolutely no internal communication between Cryptic's marketing drones and the devs working on STO. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the STO team was blindsided by the announcement that this ship would be in the CStore only and unavailable by ingame means.

The STO devs, including DStahl have made announcements that marketing has utterly failed to follow along with. Marketing has never made any kind of effort to defend it's actions to my recollection and the devs seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

It is very difficult to know exactly what is going on due to the lack of transparency but I do know that marketing drives have been inconsistent with their own statements as well as abiding by statements from the STO team. That is where I have issue, not with the CStore proper, but with the operations and seeming lack of rules by which it runs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
12-26-2010, 03:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethanatos View Post
I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the STO team was blindsided by the announcement that this ship would be in the CStore only and unavailable by ingame means.

The STO devs, including DStahl have made announcements that marketing has utterly failed to follow along with. Marketing has never made any kind of effort to defend it's actions to my recollection and the devs seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

It is very difficult to know exactly what is going on due to the lack of transparency but I do know that marketing drives have been inconsistent with their own statements as well as abiding by statements from the STO team. That is where I have issue, not with the CStore proper, but with the operations and seeming lack of rules by which it runs.
This ^^ has been at the back of my mind since the Garumba was released and the more I think about it the more truth it seems to hold, the bit high-lighted in red mostly but the rest I think is also very valid.

Ships in STO are pretty much the essence of your character...its what most people see you in and its what you spend most of your time in. Sure people can see you running around in a Maelstrom but they know its a Fleet Escort your flying. The Garumba was something completely new, for the character I had lined up to fly it I would have had to change is skill set to start with, then change weapons loadout using embelm purchases, change BO abilities and spend days/weeks learning to fly it as it handles differently to other ships....sounds game changing to me.
Th CSore has its uses and certain things I have no issue being there like costumes/uniforms, vanity packs for ships and the additional BO & ship slots - yep all this is fine in my eyes and is content correct for a cash shop. Ships on the other hand are not vanity items in STO especially the endgame ones, imagine the feedback there would be from Blizzard or Codemasters putting endgame armour sets on their CShops that players HAD to buy with real money. As far as I know no other game that requires you to pay a monthly subscription also requires you to pay to receive end game content and yes a single ship does count as content (barring expansions of course but one ship does not an expansion make).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
12-26-2010, 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hravik
I'm still wondering where that new bridge officer layout method they said they would be applying to all T5 ships when they released the Excelsior went to.
Yeah, good question!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
12-26-2010, 10:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heneo View Post
This ^^ has been at the back of my mind since the Garumba was released and the more I think about it the more truth it seems to hold, the bit high-lighted in red mostly but the rest I think is also very valid.

Ships in STO are pretty much the essence of your character...its what most people see you in and its what you spend most of your time in. Sure people can see you running around in a Maelstrom but they know its a Fleet Escort your flying. The Garumba was something completely new, for the character I had lined up to fly it I would have had to change is skill set to start with, then change weapons loadout using embelm purchases, change BO abilities and spend days/weeks learning to fly it as it handles differently to other ships....sounds game changing to me.
Th CSore has its uses and certain things I have no issue being there like costumes/uniforms, vanity packs for ships and the additional BO & ship slots - yep all this is fine in my eyes and is content correct for a cash shop. Ships on the other hand are not vanity items in STO especially the endgame ones, imagine the feedback there would be from Blizzard or Codemasters putting endgame armour sets on their CShops that players HAD to buy with real money. As far as I know no other game that requires you to pay a monthly subscription also requires you to pay to receive end game content and yes a single ship does count as content (barring expansions of course but one ship does not an expansion make).
Kudos to: thethantos and Heleno

Both are very valid statements. The dev team IS stuck between a rock and a hard place! As far as I've heard Stahl say, he and the dev's make very little choices on pricings, and if they do, its only because ATARI wants a certain profit from the C-Store. Most of the fed Endgame ships like Nebula and Excelsior T5 are C-Store items, not required for gameplay but they have something extra so you get something extra for paying for them. That's why they have the special abilities. Same for the X and Garumba lance cannon. IMHO I'd rather fly a Garumba because of its unique creativeness. Since it is the equivilent of the Fed's Gal-X then its only fair Klinks pay the same price for it. I DO agree that it should be part of the RAF program so that people can earn the ship ingame as they still can with the X. That, I am totally for!

Im glad to see some people seeing my points about The devs not being the greedy ones, and that its ATARI and Cryptic upper management that are mostlikely calling the priceing shots here. I would have to imagine that its extremely humiliating and disappointing for Stahl to have to release an engineering report with future C-items knowing that management is charging an arm and a leg (sometimes) for the stuff. I believe that if Stahl was in complete control of STO, and had a big budget from hundreds of thousands of subs, these ships and C-Items would be earnable rewards from quests and such. He is a diehard gamer too, and I bet you when he is playing on his own personal STO account like the rest of us, he has to refer to his credit card to get the same items, and I bet you it makes him mad and frustrated.

The problem is Stahl is taking most of the blame since he's incharge of STO game production, but as he's said many times, his hands are tied by Cryptic Upper Management, ATARI, and CBS. It has to be ther most frustrating thing to want to add all sorts of canon content but having to have CBS "inspect" and descided if its to be released or not. I'm sure thats why we've only had very few voice acting from ST actors. Games like Star Trek Legacy must have paid a fortune to get the voice acting from all of the captains in the franchise series. Bethesda was the developer of that game I believe and they had several successful games like Fallout 3 to help pay for the cannon ships and voice acting.

Is Cryptic trying to juggly too many MMO's? I think, yes. But they are trying to expand. IMHO they should stick with 3 MMO's max and turn them in to good solid popular MMO's first. I believe they might be trying to expand to rapidly. They need their artists to focus on te current MMO's and get as much good content out for the current MMO's to attract more subs, more LTS subs, and keep current subs. But that's not for anyone to say except Cryptic Upper Management who is a lagitamate business and would be crazy if they didnt care about profit. I thing the expansion of MMO's is an attempt to get profit from several fronts. The problem is they dont have the dev support to pull it off yet.


I think that when we complain about pricing on ships that only do "this" or "that" we should not direct them at the devs, but direct them at the "bean counters" or the CEO... whoever makes the final decision.

The things people are saying to devs is no different then if you were to walk into a Best Buy or Electronics Botique and rant at the cashier or workers for the prices of the merchandice. And very sadly, I have to say I've witnessed this before in thoes very stores. You have to feel empathy for the worker who is just doing their job and has no decision making abilities price-wise at all.

All it is doing is directing hate at the closest people you can find in the business. I see people rant at the Forum Moderators as if they have any control over game content. That's just dumb. That puts that Moderator in a tight spot. Moderators arent messengers, there are section where you can leave your feedback. Everyone here including the dev's know that some of the prices are too high but they cant do anymore about it then we as players could. None of the letters you send to the CEO hoping to be the lucky one to get through to him, actually reach him. He takes emails from Cryptic Staff, and all of the player mail is deleted without even being opened. Concering matters reach upper managment from the lower managment who are informed by reading threads and posts ( Dan Stahl).

Our complaints about pricing should start out like "Mr. Stahl, I know your hands are tied in this matter but I thing X is too expensive. I disagree becaise of Y and my solution is Z. Thank you for listening if you happen to read this."

Thait ^ kind of feedback will get you way more attention to your topic then ranting and putting "wtf" in the subject of your thread. Starting out with an insane hateful rant gets you nowhere exceept banned. I know, I've already had an infraction for ranting excessivly before I took the side of the Developers. I had to see that they are not the guilty ones, they work just like the rest of us. And thoues of you that are in the sales dept. of a company that sell things to customers know what I'm talking about. Nothing is worse then an angry customer who is ranting at you about something you have no control over. Or the people that shout at their waitress because the cook is having a bad day. She has to wait for him to cook too, before she can serve the party. That's why you get discounts and free meals from the manager. We lose sight of this concept when we play the MMO.

We have the idea that they are n complete control of the game and that they are desciding to pull a fast one on us. We rant and rant so the EP is under stress from an angry mob with prichforks and torches. So he has to presure the artist. This is pressure that causes mistakes and bugs to be overlooked. This same pressure is the result of the bad and buggy release of STO and the reason that alot of people left the game. If Zinc had had the choice, he would have not released the game yet untile it was much more refined. Yet we blamed Zinc and the dev's at release for a horribly made game. If course it wasnt finished! They were forced to release what they had so far! Point in case: We are point fingers at the wrong people. The next time you hate the pricetag on something you blame "bean counters" or the people in the company that are responsible for pricing. You make sure you show no blame to the dev team. Under this kind of pressure and hate I probably would have quit, as much as I love Trek, and if I were a 3d modeler/animator with the company, I would say, "Screw it! These people are hateful and impatient!"

Remember what I've said and the points I've made. Stahl has been told one thing by management, so he tells us in an eng report. Then managment descided to do something else. Stahl can follow order or he can lose his job. So he has to do what he's told. To us, this appears that the dev's have "lied to us." Or that they have "decieved us" or "ticked us." As much as I know about the dev's, I know that if given the choice, they would never promise one thing, then do a bait and switch on us. They all have STO accounts and they are most likely subject to the same difficulties on their personal STO accounts as the rest of us. Some of them play the game all the time, Stahl even comes in, I've seen him in listening to zone chat to see what the "word on the street" is. He cares about us this much to take the time to do this then go back to work and make decisions based on what we're saying. It may sound like I really like the man... I do. I think he is a great EP and I think all of the devs are great and what hacks me off the most is the unloyalty some people show to these men and wemen.

People removing the blue LTS on their forum names as a protest is stupid. It does nothing and makes what you say less effective. Remember LTS take a huge risk putting all that money upfront non-refundable. Stahl respects that. He is probably more inclined to listen to what a bunch of LTSer's say, in a civil man, then people that just pay every month, cause LTS is a risk and a leap of faith that the devs will hold true to their word. Turning that blue off shows you have renounced your loyalty to them. Instead of turning it off. You ought to start a thread where LTSers can talk and give feedback. Sometimes when people are scanning thread posts they will stop at a blue name because thats someone that has made a big comitment to the game and what they say must carry more weight. Some of you do it, dont deny it. Turn the blue back on and carry some weight with requests and feedback. I truely believe that with Stahl or a likeminded person at the helm, I will be glad that I have a LTS and that it was worth getting.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
12-27-2010, 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4ID
I think that when we complain about pricing on ships that only do "this" or "that" we should not direct them at the devs, but direct them at the "bean counters" or the CEO... whoever makes the final decision.
Do you really think ppl who complain about the pricing here are makeing the developers responsible for the final decisions .. better get of your high horse?! We all know that the normal developer is not responsible for any marketing decision.

dstahl is not a simple dev, he is the executive producer, he is the most responsible person we as customers can reach through the forums. His word counts also in the rounds where guys from Atari, CBS and Cryptic discussing things. To write a single letter to a CEO is completely pointless, because as long as such things are not public they goto /dev/null. To write postings on forums where they are public is much better and needs no coordination between the players/customers to raise their voice.

But this whole discussion about who is responsible at least is totaly pointless and only leads this discussion into a wrong direction. The only thing that really counts to me ( and i think alot of ppl here who complain about it ) is the price-tag on the Guramba Siege Destroyer.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
12-27-2010, 03:25 AM
I was looking forward to the Siege Destroyer since before they named it; back when I thought they were simply going to release the Talon Battleship (Which I'm still hoping to see). I was grinding my KDF LCDR like crazy to reach lv 41 (the level at which dstahl said the ship would be usable), but then saw it was bumped up to LtGen when I tried to go to Tribble to test it. I was disappointed, but still looked forward to the ship.

Then I saw they wanted $25 for it and it turned me off completely. Not only is that around half a tank of petrol for me (beyond what I want to spend in the recent economy), it's half a tank of petrol for a ship that I can only use after I can no longer level. Just getting to LtGen is a grind due to a lack of story content, but after you get there, that's all you have left: PvP (And I don't PvP) and Grinding for emblems (or grinding because I can't think of anything better to do with my time.) That's just not cost effective for me.

If they changed it, made the ship obtainable at Cpt or BGen, then it would be a better deal. Sure it's still a grind to get to LtGen, I'm at least going somewhere and have something to do and a goal to achieve.

Then puppy says that it is the KDF Gal X, but the Gal X is available at lv 41, so is it not the KDF Gal X. What about the strength or power of the Garumba makes it different to the Gal X in that it needs to be bumped up to VADM equivalent? If they are the same, why are the KDF players being made to wait two more ranks than the SF players?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
12-27-2010, 08:05 AM
The marketing and Atari dudes don't program the ships or costumes. They probably don't even know what the dev team is working on right now. They will put some targets on what sum has to be earned with the C-store and then the devs have to make choises according to that.

I'm pretty sure none of the marketing dudes or Atari bighots knows or cares about STO. It's just profit they want. They saw they made a lot of money with the Galaxy X and the Excelsior and they asked/forced Cryptic to repeat the trick. People here seem to be willing to pay any crazy amount for some pixels and the vanity to have something not everybody has. So a company will exploit that desire.

I have an idea for them: make a new supership (with a one shot/one kill cannon for example), say there are only 10 of those to sell and make an auction. Let's see what amount people would pay for that...
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
12-27-2010, 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LuLuXi
The marketing and Atari dudes don't program the ships or costumes. They probably don't even know what the dev team is working on right now. They will put some targets on what sum has to be earned with the C-store and then the devs have to make choises according to that.

I'm pretty sure none of the marketing dudes or Atari bighots knows or cares about STO. It's just profit they want. They saw they made a lot of money with the Galaxy X and the Excelsior and they asked/forced Cryptic to repeat the trick. People here seem to be willing to pay any crazy amount for some pixels and the vanity to have something not everybody has. So a company will exploit that desire.

I have an idea for them: make a new supership (with a one shot/one kill cannon for example), say there are only 10 of those to sell and make an auction. Let's see what amount people would pay for that...
http://forums.startrekonline.com/forumdisplay.php?f=158

We know what they are working on and there are these things called "meetings" where the staff all gets together and discusses what they are working on and how it is progressing. The Engineering Reports are what WE know they are working on, better believe that everyone at Cryptic is well aware of the progress.

Atari is also going to be on top of the only company currently keeping them afloat, so they will be generally aware of what is going on and what is being developed. The so-called "Marketing Dudes" know what is coming out so they can figure out how much the less informed subscribers will pay for an individual item as well as figuring out how to slide things past the portion of the subscriber base is actually paying attention.

This is not run out of someone's garage anymore, nor is it spread across the world being developed in people's homes. This is a centralised subdivision of Atari and everyone knows, at least in general, what is going on.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
12-31-2010, 05:01 AM
Why?! Why oh why would they put this ship in the store for so much money?!? Oh wait I know, cause you idiots will pay it! Let's take a walk down memory lane shall we?

The Galaxy X comes out for the referral program, and what happens? Masses of mouth breathers ran out and bought 5 copys of the game and 5 new subs so they could game the system and get the new shinny. Then Cryptc adds it to the C store to stop people from doing that. Next comes flames on the forums over the price of the ship. People said all the same things that are being said now. "this will kill the game" "this will drive people away" "why pay a for a sub and a store?" and what did all the revolting players do once they were done raging in the forums? Not only did they keep paying their monthly sub, they bought the damn ship too. So please tell me why anyone is surprised Cryptic would make and then sell another $25 ship after they turned a profit on the last one.

It's all the same people complaining about the C-store and they all say they are on the brink of quitting every time something new makes it into the store, yet here they are all still crying about how close they are to leaving again. Guess what guys, cryptic knows you're not going anywhere or you would have already. So I hope your new ship is worth it when it's all said and done. Don't forget to come back and cry about how underpowered it is once you've had a chance to play with it too.
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