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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
Just had a great session of PVP (I play fed) and i just had a thought. Why is it that folks seem to think that Klinks have the upper hand in PVP? Is it the ships? Unique powers? Ridged foreheads?

Well I compiled a list of fed vs KDF haves/have nots just to see if there is any truth to the overwhelming suspicion that FEDS just don't have the equipment to deal with our bad mannered friends.

Let's tally a list of who has what and who doesn't. At the end lets see who has the inherent advantage...

Cloak Ships
Fed: 2
KDF: 14

Unique Ship Ability
Fed: 3 (Gal-X, Voyager, Gal-Refit)
KDF: 4 (carriers + B'Rel Refit)

Unique Powers
Fed: 0
KDF: 0


Total
Fed: 7
KDF: 18


So this doesn't account level of experience, just raw equipment/powers.

KDF, from a raw equipment standpoint, beat the feds 2.5:1.

So my main point is, if the KDF is perceived to be so strong in PVP, what is the delta between the FEDS and KDF (Besides personal skill)? It has to be equipment. But what equipment? Is it the cloaks? That surely has the FEDS beats by 7:1.

That can't be it. I've been on all cloaked fed teams and we still got waxed. Could it be the carriers? Hmmm.....maybe. However, I see carriers get popped right and left with a good team.

I truly don't know why KDF seems more powerful...Do you?


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Statistic upodate: as of 1/1/2011

Rank:
Lt. Commander (Engineer)

Kills: 71
Deaths: 20
Matches: 10
KDF Total Points: 117
FED Total Points: 99
KDF Wins: 5
FED Wins: 5
15/0-1 Blowouts : KDF: 1 / FED: 0

LT. Commander Summary: Even based on wins. Overall was pretty even matched with ships and tactics. Drove BOP much of the time. KDF cruiser sucked

Rank:
Commander

Kills: 78
Deaths: 42
Matches: 13
KDF Total Points: 124
Fed Total Points: 152
KDF Wins: 5
Fed Wins: 8
15/0-1 Blowouts : KDF: 1 / FED: 0

Commander Sumary: Feds beat KDF hands down most matches. Feds started using much more advance tactices like Tykens Rift. Feds focused fire much better. KDF still didn't call shots or team up much. Flew BOP most of the time. K'Tinga still lacks punch or survivability.

Rank:
Captain

Kills: 78
Deaths: 28
Matches: 11
KDF Total Points: 146
FED Total Points: 102
KDF Wins: 9
Fed Wins: 2
15/0-1 Blowouts : KDF: 1 / FED: 0

Captain Summary (Captain rank 2) : Fed had the advantage up to this rank. Tactics and firepower are decidedly FED controlled. However, Captain is the start of the big guns.

KDF Rules in this rank. Vorcha cruiser is the big difference. Being able to mount Dual HVY cannons on cruisers is the standout ability. Fed beam cruisers just can't go toe v toe with a Vorcha. BOP is a death trap IMHO. Vocha is a KDF/FED engineers dream.


More to come.....

Otep
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
12-24-2010, 11:15 PM
Your comparison is pretty short sighted. Sure cloak counts some, but not a whole lot. Unique ship abilities are for the most part novelty parlor tricks. There are a great many aspects that you are overlooking in your comparison.

Off the top of my head:ship variety
console load outs
communication
hull strength
crew size
turn rates
skill point builds

Really the two things you chose to measure balance, are at the bottom of the list of what goes into a good ship build, a good team, and advantage for one side or the other.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
12-24-2010, 11:30 PM
OK where do we start k ... flaw 1. cloak ships you got a 14 - 2 score that`s stupid to say the least.
it makes it sound like the KDF have 14 T5 ship`s.
Where as we actualy only had 4 now upped to 9 & out of that only just over half have cloak.
The KDF have been asking for a proper sci ship from beta when we get one its the same layout as the worst fed sci ship in the game.
then you take in to account that the B`rel is a POS **** thanks to some whiners + then you get the new ship at 2000cp lolz no thanks craptic can shove that where the sun dont shine m8.

Not here is the reality of the matter old school klinks that are still around (ie those that took the time to rank a toon up in the first season)
Had nothing but PVP to get them to BG & its like everything else you practice enough you will get better.

So what you have is a large population that plays next to no pvp from 0-RA5 (at the time) just missions against poor quality AI (this is where the im capt Kirk im godly persona comes in)
They join a fed vs kling pvp get the backsides spanked (maybe dont scream it the first time) But after a few fed vs klings they start whining klings OP.
Why because they then queue up for FED vs FED play against people of the same level of ability
& the im capt Kirk persona comes back till the next time they play against good klingon players.

to give you an example i just ranked another kling sci toon up & was suprised i could actually get some pvp`s done i think it was either commander or capt rank i got in a game.
quickly popped 4 feds one after the other looked up & was like wtf my team was losin 7-4 thats when i realised my team was actually feds looking for the IWIN button that klings ar meant to have.

SO to cap this rant of FEDDIES DONT BOTHER ROLLING A KLING TOON UNLESS YOUR SERIOUS ABOUT PVP... the IWIN button is a myth nothing more.. seriusly we do not have a button that makes your ship explode just by looking at it.

At T5 we have in usefull ships the BOP (not he B`rel thats a joke) we have the neg & the vorcha & the vo`qu the rest are proven jokes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
12-24-2010, 11:49 PM
I'm flying an OMGWTFOPLOLZ Carrier and I've got a Defiant fleet mate who can decloak and rip through my 15.4k shields and drop me to 50% of my over 50k hull in one opening volley. There is nothing any side has that is over powered and cannot be defeated or overcome with the proper application of brains.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
12-25-2010, 12:35 AM
A couple of things to start with so we are on the same page.

*I think that the count of cloaked ships that we should use when evaluating end game PvP should be tier 5 only. So that would be 5 for the KDF.

Unique ship abilities: Not sure how a raw count shows OP, but I think that you're low for both sides.

What underlying conditions aid the Klingons?

Star Fleet has aft/hiding players entering matches for emblems that don't participate. Being outnumbered is a huge disadvantage.

Star Fleet has many players that don't try to win. They participate, but their hearts aren't in it. The KDF tends to go*through this group like a chainsaw.

Star Fleet has many more players than the KDF that want to have a*broad range of skills for PvE and still PvP. This varies in importance depending on how many captain skill points are spent on non-PvP space skills.*

People make Klingon characters to PvP. They are motivated to research skills, tactics, abilities, and equipment that will improve their chances of winning.*

Most Klingons take a great deal of pride in playing to win and succeeding. The average Klingon will keep trying to win even if the match is beyond hope and sometimes they pull it off. Some of these same players will not go to the same extremes when playing federation.

The KDF players DO have an experience advantage, but I am not sure it is as big of a factor as many want to believe.

Playing against cloaked opponents requires a level of communication and cooperation that is difficult to achieve in a pug. And this must be maintained throughout the match or the Federation can suffer a quick reversal. Pre-made groups have the group makeup, experience together, and voice chat that makes this a minor challenge.*

Fighting Carriers effectively requires a slightly different approach. A pug may have this expertise/equipment/BOff layouts/capt skills to handle them, it may not. You could actually end up with too many of these specialists I suppose. A Pre-made group usually is prepared for Carriers. This is why there is such a vast difference in opinion about whether carriers are OP in my opinion.

Another factor is "shock and awe". The BoP is the king here. You never know what BOff layout you will be facing and it can even change during a match! A couple Birds come out of cloak and unleash all manner of mayhem and it can be overwhelming. What power or combination was*that? How can it be countered? It is a Bird, gotta go through the log and figure out what just happened. Prepared and experienced
Captains don't panic or warp out, they know what is possible and how to cope. The unprepared don't realize that it was 3 different Birds that they encountered sequentially and believe that 1 ship somehow tanked, dpsed, and controlled.

There more to talk about to be sure, but that is enough for one post.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
12-25-2010, 04:46 AM
While your data is clearly flawed, it is pretty obvious that something is driving the majority of Federation players to think that the game is slanted in favor of the Klingons. There are some relatively minor issues that if adjusted (pet aggro) or implemented (player only tab targeting) could help alleviate some of this perception, but won't necessarily make anything better for the majority of Feds out there.

The reason for this is that the vast majority are just bad. They don't know what they are doing, they don't give it their all (or even participate sometimes times), they are there for themselves rather than the team, and they cry almost as much as I do. That's not to say that they can't get better. They can. Unfortunately, typical Fed players just aren't willing to get over themselves, adapt, improve and work together because it's not easy and it doesn't fit their carefully crafted self image.

These "unique" abilities are largely just scapegoats to help players in the mediocre to awful range protect their egos by giving them something to focus their insecurities on and allow them to rationalize why they lose all the time. "It's not me, it's you." Pfft. The game has issues but it isn't broken. They can be overcome if people try to play right rather than expect to win by virtue of being in the Federation because that's what happens in canon.

Merry flippin' Christmas. ^^
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
12-25-2010, 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by foesbane View Post

Cloak Ships
Fed: 2
KDF: 14

Unique Ship Ability
Fed: 3 (Gal-X, Voyager, Gal-Refit)
KDF: 4 (carriers + B'Rel Refit)

Unique Powers
Fed: 0
KDF: 0 4+ (teaming up; focus fire; heal support; coordinated alpha-strikes; ...)

Total
Fed: 7
KDF: 18 22+
I just tried to round up ur listing
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
12-25-2010, 06:41 AM
Cloak Ships
Fed: 2
KDF: 14 The Bop is a single class of ship that goes through every rank, so minus five for the different
classes makes 9 not 14.

Unique Ship Ability
Fed: 3 (Gal-X, Voyager, Gal-Refit) + Nebula, Defiant-R hey thats 5!
KDF: 4 (carriers + B'Rel Refit)



Quote:
I truly don't know why KDF seems more powerful...Do you?
Yes, but I will not go through explanation again.


Merry Christmas all !!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
12-25-2010, 07:13 AM
It's Because we have pet Orion's, instead of pet Tribbles.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
12-25-2010, 08:29 AM
Summary of balance:

-Cruisers are near identical - Feds have excel with LTC tact, and a slightly better healing cruiser, Klings have cloak (not a big deal after initial decloak though)....except for arguably the most important cruiser (star cruiser clone) which is very limited in use due to no cloak.

-Feds have Voyager sci ship (best ship in the game in my opinion), Klingons have the Carrier (excellent foundation). Both ships are needed in top tier pvp imo.

-Feds have escorts that have extra damage and more hull, Klingons have Birds with versatility but less hull and raw damage (Craptors and Goombas dont count because theyre junk for klingon playstyle).

-Majority of Fed players have no idea how to play the game, though that is being balanced out by Feds disguised as Klings.

Overall this is the most balanced the game has been imo. Until the Carrier patch Klingons had only the Neg and the Bird, so no source for science teams, hazards or transfer shields. Fed sci spam was impossible to break through. Now klings can actually stay in the fight and clean up the minefields (thanks to a number of factors - carriers, health increase patch, Neg health increase, Cap x3s attainable at max level, etc.) making for far more interesting matches.
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