Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
12-31-2010, 07:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MavrykDH View Post
Yeah my thoughts exactly, however I don't see the need for "Redshirt starships" as by the time you reach the level to do this, you would have the credits/merits or whatever to out fit the new ship and I would never pick a red shirt over skilled BoFF. Though I can see them add it in as a back-up for people who would...
Well, I'd imagine it would not be a question of credits but rather a lack of BOs promoted to Captains - kind of like when you left the tutorial and don't have a full crew of BOs yet, so you get Redshirts on your away team.

This would mostly concern people leveling straight through from Captain to Fleet Admiral, though. The veterans who have been "stuck" on one or more of the ranks until the Fleet Feature will be implemented should have enough BO skill points and merit/honor available to create a full squadron right away.

Ideally, the Fleet Feature would not just be available on the FAdm level but already on Rear Admiral, just with huge limitations on what kind of squadron you can build. Either by numbers (we have four levels of Admiral, and can get a maximum of four ships in a group = +1 BO ship per rank tier?) or by ship type (T1 to T4 = +1T per rank tier, your T5 vessel will be the flagship). Just a thought, of course.

The cool thing is that this system could be used anywhere in the game, if you just make the entire thing optional so that people who prefer to do so could keep on doing content solo with a single vessel, whereas others can build a squadron for bigger battles, balancing additional difficulty (managing tactical combat on fleet scale as opposed to just focusing on your one ship and a fifth of the potential enemies) with more loot.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12 Fleet combat
12-31-2010, 07:55 AM
I like this idea too. It would certainly make Admiral space combat different from other levels. If they did go this route, I hope they would link it with changes to the ranking system. Even if they just added another 10 grades to the captain rank, it would add more of a sense of acomplishment on making rear admiral. The other thing the devs should then look at is loosening the level banding on pvp. As a Vice Admiral, I would still rather team with a couple of human captains over NPC captains.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
12-31-2010, 08:02 AM
Follow-up post. The other thing that would be interesting with this approach is the whole fleet management aspect. Do you bring a mix of science, cruisers, and escorts; what do you build complementary boff powers across the ships? It really would add a whole new level of depth to the game. Just another thought, to avoid confusion with 'teams' and 'fleets', I would call the NPC group a "squadron". Although that term is normally associated with aviation or cavalry, it is also a naval term applying to a small group of warships (normally submarines or destroyers, but can be applied to others as well).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron_(naval)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
12-31-2010, 08:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Well, I'd imagine it would not be a question of credits but rather a lack of BOs promoted to Captains - kind of like when you left the tutorial and don't have a full crew of BOs yet, so you get Redshirts on your away team.

This would mostly concern people leveling straight through from Captain to Fleet Admiral, though. The veterans who have been "stuck" on one or more of the ranks until the Fleet Feature will be implemented should have enough BO skill points and merit/honor available to create a full squadron right away.
True, but at that point you did not have creds to buy the Boffs. By the time you reach Rear Admiral, you would have all four ground BoFF's maxed at Commander level and probably most of the ones you use in space (if its not the same ones). So therefore it would be no different to the changes between promoting your boff from Lt Cmdr to Cmdr.

Quote:
Ideally, the Fleet Feature would not just be available on the FAdm level but already on Rear Admiral, just with huge limitations on what kind of squadron you can build. Either by numbers (we have four levels of Admiral, and can get a maximum of four ships in a group = +1 BO ship per rank tier?) or by ship type (T1 to T4 = +1T per rank tier, your T5 vessel will be the flagship). Just a thought, of course.
My concept would be a new fleet ship slot per Admiral rank. For example: Rear Admiral = One extra Ship for your wing (probably be best to call it wing to save confusion from Fleets), Vice Admiral = Another ship etc.

By the time you reach Fleet Admiral you will have your full wing of five ships (including your own), this would be no different that the restriction of how many Boffs slots you have at each rank. Also I didn't think about Ship classes, but I would say it should be like BoFF items, they depend on the rank of the player and not the BoFF, so you would have instant access to all ships available to you for your wing (including any C-Store purchases).

Quote:
The cool thing is that this system could be used anywhere in the game, if you just make the entire thing optional so that people who prefer to do so could keep on doing content solo with a single vessel, whereas others can build a squadron for bigger battles, balancing additional difficulty (managing tactical combat on fleet scale as opposed to just focusing on your one ship and a fifth of the potential enemies) with more loot.
I'd assume they have an Auto-Scaling system in place for teams anyway, however I think that because BoFF's have less skills than a Player, that the scaling for a Player with a wing of BoFF's should be smaller than a Player with a Team of other players.

And yeah, I agree, it should be an option so people with lower end systems can turn it off incase their machines can't handle the increase in resources, as no doubt ships use more than Ground Boffs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
12-31-2010, 08:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter41 View Post
I like this idea too. It would certainly make Admiral space combat different from other levels. If they did go this route, I hope they would link it with changes to the ranking system. Even if they just added another 10 grades to the captain rank, it would add more of a sense of acomplishment on making rear admiral. The other thing the devs should then look at is loosening the level banding on pvp. As a Vice Admiral, I would still rather team with a couple of human captains over NPC captains.
I agree, I would of preferred a Commodore/Fleet Captain rank in between.

And yeah, as Boffs would have less skills in comparison to Players, there would still be a need to team up for STF's and PvP
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
12-31-2010, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter41 View Post
Follow-up post. The other thing that would be interesting with this approach is the whole fleet management aspect. Do you bring a mix of science, cruisers, and escorts; what do you build complementary boff powers across the ships? It really would add a whole new level of depth to the game.
Yeah I hadn't quite of thought weather they Captain BoFFs would get their own, I would probably say not. I would just have it that you have a few Captain skills slots added to the BoFF and then you can add the ship components and consoles like your own starship. This way there isn't too many variables, (5 ships, with 5 crews each, with 5 skills each...) and it would encourage people to group up with players who would be fully stated.

Quote:
Just another thought, to avoid confusion with 'teams' and 'fleets', I would call the NPC group a "squadron". Although that term is normally associated with aviation or cavalry, it is also a naval term applying to a small group of warships (normally submarines or destroyers, but can be applied to others as well).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squadron_(naval)
I thought of wing, though Squadron probably fit better as they aren't fighters.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
12-31-2010, 08:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MavrykDH View Post
Also I didn't think about Ship classes, but I would say it should be like BoFF items, they depend on the rank of the player and not the BoFF, so you would have instant access to all ships available to you for your wing (including any C-Store purchases).
In my mind I'd always make sure that one's BOs would have lesser ships than the player character. He is the Admiral, his is the flagship, hence he gets the best and the biggest. This will also give the rank more meaning, as bigger ships are always more impressive. So a Rear Admiral will only have a bunch of Centaurs or Mirandas with him, whilst a Fleet Admiral's task force might even boast a couple Galaxies - just as an example.

I could think of a numerical difference in addition to this, though. For example that you could only get a maximum of two additional ships at first, but receive another one later, and a fourth and final ship on the FAdm level. Of note is that you could still have other ships "in reserve" (like unused BOs), you just can't take them into the mission. This could be explained by the Admiral's fleet being bigger than just the ships he travels with, as some ships will be engaged in missions elsewhere in the sector etc.

Personal preferences, though. It cannot really be argued what would be "better", as this is based purely on my feeling on the subject.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavrykDH View Post
I'd assume they have an Auto-Scaling system in place for teams anyway, however I think that because BoFF's have less skills than a Player, that the scaling for a Player with a wing of BoFF's should be smaller than a Player with a Team of other players.
Nah, that's additional difficulty.
Gotta pay a price for the drops and the prestige of commanding a fleet. But also let's not forget that a BO ship will likely be at least as good as an NPC vessel, so in the end it would be a 5v5 just as it is currently a 1v1 when you're attacking a spawn without other players in your team. With the benefit that you have full control over what target your squadron will attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavrykDH View Post
And yeah, I agree, it should be an option so people with lower end systems can turn it off incase their machines can't handle the increase in resources, as no doubt ships use more than Ground Boffs.
That, and some people might simply find it too hard to try commanding their fleet and control their own ship. It's like with the difference in ground combat when you're all alone or have an away team with you, just that space combat requires a bit more skill as you're moving constantly as opposed to the rather stationary firefights on the ground.

Mmmh... I'm getting more and more ideas, should probably write up a proper concept of my own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavrykDH View Post
I thought of wing, though Squadron probably fit better as they aren't fighters.
Both can be used, actually. Squadrons can be made up of fighters, and - as we have seen in DS9 - there can be wings of Galaxies.
Just go with what you like best (there are even more options too). I for myself opted for squadron as that one seems to be more prevalent when it comes to naval formations. Also, a wing is larger than a squadron, and we probably won't get to command that many ships.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
12-31-2010, 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
In my mind I'd always make sure that one's BOs would have lesser ships than the player character. He is the Admiral, his is the flagship, hence he gets the best and the biggest. This will also give the rank more meaning, as bigger ships are always more impressive. So a Rear Admiral will only have a bunch of Centaurs or Mirandas with him, whilst a Fleet Admiral's task force might even boast a couple Galaxies - just as an example.
My only issue is that they are of Captain rank, so giving them a "lieutenant" rank ship would be pointless at Admiral levels. I see your point, but I don't see why they should be restricted as Picard was a captain and he got a T5 Galaxy retrofit

Quote:
I could think of a numerical difference in addition to this, though. For example that you could only get a maximum of two additional ships at first, but receive another one later, and a fourth and final ship on the FAdm level. Of note is that you could still have other ships "in reserve" (like unused BOs), you just can't take them into the mission. This could be explained by the Admiral's fleet being bigger than just the ships he travels with, as some ships will be engaged in missions elsewhere in the sector etc.
So you would have your Squadron Captains in starships on one tab, lets say about ten from which you can pick and choose, and then each time you promote one of your BoFF's you can replace their position in your own crew and keep the same number as you do now (10 I think it was)?

That way you can take different Squadron Captains as the mission requires just like you would ground team? (Not that I swap mine around at all and I have about 5 BoFF's who do nothing)

Quote:
Nah, that's additional difficulty.
Gotta pay a price for the drops and the prestige of commanding a fleet. But also let's not forget that a BO ship will likely be at least as good as an NPC vessel, so in the end it would be a 5v5 just as it is currently a 1v1 when you're attacking a spawn without other players in your team. With the benefit that you have full control over what target your squadron will attack.
Well that's a good point, though at the moment its rarely even odds

Quote:
That, and some people might simply find it too hard to try commanding their fleet and control their own ship. It's like with the difference in ground combat when you're all alone or have an away team with you, just that space combat requires a bit more skill as you're moving constantly as opposed to the rather stationary firefights on the ground.
Most of the time I just worry about the heals (which most of us have set up enough heals for our own ship using BoFFs during space combat to not worry about) and ordering who to target while playing on the ground and let them go on automatic for everything else. I couldn't see much need to micromanage every ship, but there would be players who like to do it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
12-31-2010, 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MavrykDH View Post
My only issue is that they are of Captain rank, so giving them a "lieutenant" rank ship would be pointless at Admiral levels. I see your point, but I don't see why they should be restricted as Picard was a captain and he got a T5 Galaxy retrofit
And Charlie Reynolds was a Captain and he got a Centaur-class.

We've got to keep in mind that, in Starfleet, you're generally not given command of any ship unless you're a Commander or a Captain. Player progression in STO is a gameplay-induced exception from this rule explained away by a special commission achieved under unusual circumstances. No need to establish this as standard.

Normally, the biggest thing a Lieutenant would be in command of would be a Runabout. :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavrykDH View Post
So you would have your Squadron Captains in starships on one tab, lets say about ten from which you can pick and choose, and then each time you promote one of your BoFF's you can replace their position in your own crew and keep the same number as you do now (10 I think it was)?

That way you can take different Squadron Captains as the mission requires just like you would ground team? (Not that I swap mine around at all and I have about 5 BoFF's who do nothing)
Exactly.

Like in ground combat, where you have your list of BO's in the character tab, and the "away team" popup menu where you define who to take with you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavrykDH View Post
Well that's a good point, though at the moment its rarely even odds
Hmm, how so? In dailies and some missions you often encounter "special spawns" such as two capital ships or one capital ship and two frigates ... but the normal random spawn (for example in exploration cluster missions) is either 1 escort / science ship / cruiser or 3 squishy frigates.

I could imagine battles being harder in the aforementioned dailies and some of the missions, but I still think it'd be doable even if the enemy is in numerical advantage, simply due to you having the advantage of lots of special abilities.

Then again, if BO Captains start out with weaker ships such as Centaurs maybe you are right and a unique method of balancing a mission is required, else they'd blow up too easily...

Quote:
Originally Posted by MavrykDH View Post
Most of the time I just worry about the heals (which most of us have set up enough heals for our own ship using BoFFs during space combat to not worry about) and ordering who to target while playing on the ground and let them go on automatic for everything else. I couldn't see much need to micromanage every ship, but there would be players who like to do it.
Yeah, same. It's like micromanaging your away team's skills or just letting your BOs do their own stuff. I often do both depending solely on my mood or how difficult an encounter turns out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
12-31-2010, 09:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
And Charlie Reynolds was a Captain and he got a Centaur-class.

We've got to keep in mind that, in Starfleet, you're generally not given command of any ship unless you're a Commander or a Captain. Player progression in STO is a gameplay-induced exception from this rule explained away by a special commission achieved under unusual circumstances. No need to establish this as standard.

Normally, the biggest thing a Lieutenant would be in command of would be a Runabout. :p
Understood, but if they don't have their own bridge officers than there is nothing to stop players from choosing the ships they want to play with, rather than restricted to those in the specific tier. Heck I keep seeing myself using the Olympic class as my primary medical healer ship because it looks the part.

I just think that allowing them to use whatever ship they can already use (eg Rear Admirals won't get access to the Tier 5 Retrofits and above as they add more tiers in) sits within the current settings that Cryptic has set up for BoFF equipment restrictions.

Quote:
Like in ground combat, where you have your list of BO's in the character tab, and the "away team" popup menu where you define who to take with you.
I like this idea, I originally thought of them staying within your current roster and just switching them in and out with your current team, because as I stated before I have a few Bridge officers doing nothing anyway, so might as well use 4 for Away team, 5 for Ship Crew and another 4 Squadron Captains, with the ability to swap and match as you see fit rather than having them separate. Either way, I'd be happy...

Quote:
Hmm, how so? In dailies and some missions you often encounter "special spawns" such as two capital ships or one capital ship and two frigates ... but the normal random spawn (for example in exploration cluster missions) is either 1 escort / science ship / cruiser or 3 squishy frigates.
I guess if you stick to mission maps that is so, but how about DSE's, Warzones or other wise? Would Squadrons be disabled?

Quote:
Yeah, same. It's like micromanaging your away team's skills or just letting your BOs do their own stuff. I often do both depending solely on my mood or how difficult an encounter turns out.
95% of the time I just let them do their own thing, only calling on heals from my medic who wasn't paying attention. Or if I encounter a boss, I get them all to target the same guy and take the biggest one down first, only rarely have I been required to use other tactics which required manual control of a BoFF due to being wiped by the enemy a couple of times.
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