Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
01-03-2011, 12:52 PM
ok.

Energy escort/bop:
3 DHC, DBB, 3 Turrets: 724.22 DPS peak, 560+ dps within 5 km
3 DHC, Torp, 3 Turrets: 647.21 DPS peak, 480+ dps within 5 km (torpedo dmg not listed)

Common escort setups:
3 DHC, Torp, 2 Turrets, Torp/mine: 604.32 DPS peak, 450+ dps within 5 km
3 DHC, Torp, 2 Turrets, BA: 604.32 DPS peak (fore), 450+ dpss within 5km, almost 280 DPS in rear 250 degrees

Those are relative DPS stats (every shield scales with every weapon.) With cannon: rapid fire 2 and mk XI weapons at 3 km, the energy escorts listed post:
Escort 1: 4442.39 DPS
Escort 2: 4143.59 DPS, torpedo dmg not included

According to your graph, the regenerative shields begin at 5000 and have a max of 6000 flat. Considering attack pattern: omega 3 provides significant bonuses to ALL damage, T:HY can burn through hull and can be stacked if timed properly, DHCs deal exceptional damage to hull, and Escort 1 has room for BO: 3 and BO: 2, I'm disinclined to believe that regenerative shields are as good as covariants in PvP, where most escorts play an aggressive "pop everything alpha" style.

Escort 1, using only CRF2, would deal 44,424 damage to its target over the duration of CRF2 (10 sec,) not including Beam: Overload 3. Escort 2 would deal 41,436 damage, not counting torpedoes fired. Mark XI Regenerative [Regx2] shields would add 900 shields over that time on 100 power level, but opponent tac abilities to include Attack Patten Alpha, Fire on my Mark, and Attack Pattern Omega would still be in effect. Two seconds after CRF fails another 900 would be added, but again you would have to deal with 18 additional seconds of enemy abilities.

That said, if regenerative shields are used in conjunction with abilities such as EPtS 3, RSF, and others that help to reduce damage or increase shield resistance, they could be useful. I think they could only be effective in PvP on science ships due to their innate shield buff.


edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
MustrumRidcully said " - At least one console you can have could be a +35 % shield capacity booster console. This will always be a bigger benefit to the Covariant Shields."
But you can only fit one of those. You can fit up to 4 regen consoles. Plus each regen consoles is per facing so that's x4 the benefit.[/i]
Except there's a diminishing return on any console you stack
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
01-03-2011, 01:04 PM
As was alluded to:
The Regen shields are worse (MUCH worse) if you consider [1] the +35% shield capacity console, which multiplies the difference, and [2] the fact that you can actively heal shields via abilities, where overhealing is lost - which again makes the Covariant better, since you have less chance of overhealing; and [3] the opportunity cost of running high shield power - i.e. a point of power is much more effective in weapons than in shields.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
01-03-2011, 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
MustrumRidcully said " It's simply because it is more effective currently in the game. Shield resistances are easy to get and have a great uptime thanks to Emergency Power to Shields. Also, it is kinda more forgiving if you can rely on your shields too last some time and only have in emergency cases fix your hull - if you screw up shield healing, you still got some hull, but if you screw up hull, you're dead."/
True screw up your hull and your dead but it's a lot harder to screw up your hull as it's so much better at tanking. I use my shields to absorb the Alpha then my real tank kicks in.

Are shields really more effective? I have one of the smaller cruisers at 50.7K hull with 4 resistance consoles that's 43.6% resistance without factoring in skills, or you can go for consoles that boost the healing amount and use the skills to boost resistance. Surely that's a way bigger buffer then even Covariant shields can hope to get?
75 % shield resistance isn't that difficult to reach, it is a lot more difficult for hull. You need to use your bridge officer abilities for it, but it's done all the time.

And you should not forget - there are also effects in the game that cause hull resistance penalties:
  • Attack Pattern Beta
  • Attack Pattern Delta (if you shoot at the target)
  • Sensor Scan
You'll find a lot of these in PvP. There are no equivalents to this for shields.
If someone is out to get you, you won't have those 45 % hull resistances anymore.


Quote:
The heal them self seem way better as well. Engineering Team will give over 10k a heal far more then the shield heals. Hazard Emitters gives over 16k heal and 30% damage resistance. Aux to Structural field is over 6k every 15 seconds with 45% resistance. It seems to me from a buffer and healing point of view hull/armor tanking is far more effective. Unless I messed up the math shields have both a much smaller buffer and much smaller heal over time. So why when every second counts in PvP do so many people shield tank? (I run at 100 weapon power and 84 Aux with only 1 science console boosting heals, so those heals are nowhere near max)
Keep in mind that those resistance values are resistance modifiers. They do not become 1:1 damage reduction. There is a formula for this. (See this thread for the math) http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...24#post3258624.


Quote:
Admittedly I only looked at with this from a Cruiser point of view. But wouldn't an Escort end up with a bigger buffer and more heals with Armor tanking as well?
Escorts have only 2-3 Engineering Consoles.

Quote:
If you are going for best survivability it seems to me Armour tanking is best followed by Regen shields with the Covariant shields coming out very poorly in comparison.
You usually don't have to survive a full minute. Your primary concern are those 10 seconds where an Escort hammers you with Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Beta 3, Attack Pattern Alpha 3, Cannon Rapid Fire 2 and High Yield Torpedo 2. That's a lot of damage in a very short time.

An important thing also - it's not necessarily either hull tanking or shield tanking. You can do both.



MustrumRidcully said " - AFAIK, the bonus from the regenerative consoles are applied to the base regeneration, and this extra bonus does not benefit from the extra shield power. (And consider that 5 points of shield power already give you +20 % regeneration, and the 50 second value is basically when you already have a very high shield power)"
Granted I am not sure how it all stacks but it all stacks up to quit a big difference from testing. 56% from up to 4 consoles plus another 100% from going up to 125 power.
[/quote]
125 Power is more then 100 %. It's +300 %.

Quote:
Now add on 50 to 90 points per second from skills and you can soon find your survivability is far longer than a buffer setup with Covariant even in PvP. Plus all that regen is per facing.
There aren't any skills that increase your shield regeneration. The Ship Captain skills improve your shield capacity.


Quote:
MustrumRidcully said " - At least one console you can have could be a +35 % shield capacity booster console. This will always be a bigger benefit to the Covariant Shields."

But you can only fit one of those.
If regenerative consoles were good (which, by all aco****s, they are not), there is nothing stopping a covariant shield user from also equipping 3 of those regenerative consoles. This brings him closer to th Regenerative shields again.

Quote:
You can fit up to 4 regen consoles. Plus each regen consoles is per facing so that's x4 the benefit.
4x is optimal use if you can ensure only one shield facing needs healing all the time. But that is not necessarily the case.
In a way, my mention of that 4x factor was a bad idea. Increased shield capacity also helps when you distribute shields. You have more points to distribute, after all. So basically you inflate all values by 4 across the board, that doesn't change the time until regenerative and covariant shields become equal.

Quote:
You might find if you do a full investigation that a regen shield with regen console setup vastly out survives a Covariant buffer setup. Would that not change the following conclusion? " All in all, I see why people prefer to go Covariant. And I am afraid I will have to say good bye to my Regenerative Shield Arrays, too."
You will need to bring more then examples of things you can do - do the actual math. I can try to do that tomorrow if you don't feel like playing around with Excel.
But the effect of the regenerative consoles seem to be about the same as if you add another 25 shield power into the mix (assuming your estimation of 100 % extra regeneration is correct)
That changes the point where Regenerative Regx3 catches up with Covariant Capx3 to about 42 seconds. (If there was a way to reach 150 shield power, it would be about 36 seconds). (This doesn't account for the presence of the +35 shield capacity booster, so it's kinda "rigged" to the benefit of the regenerative shields.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
01-03-2011, 01:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP3CTREnyc
ok.

Energy escort/bop:
3 DHC, DBB, 3 Turrets: 724.22 DPS peak, 560+ dps within 5 km
3 DHC, Torp, 3 Turrets: 647.21 DPS peak, 480+ dps within 5 km (torpedo dmg not listed)

Common escort setups:
3 DHC, Torp, 2 Turrets, Torp/mine: 604.32 DPS peak, 450+ dps within 5 km
3 DHC, Torp, 2 Turrets, BA: 604.32 DPS peak (fore), 450+ dpss within 5km, almost 280 DPS in rear 250 degrees

Those are relative DPS stats (every shield scales with every weapon.) With cannon: rapid fire 2 and mk XI weapons at 3 km, the energy escorts listed post:
Escort 1: 4442.39 DPS
Escort 2: 4143.59 DPS, torpedo dmg not included
Thanks!

Quote:
According to your graph, the regenerative shields begin at 5000 and have a max of 6000 flat. Considering attack pattern: omega 3 provides significant bonuses to ALL damage, T:HY can burn through hull and can be stacked if timed properly, DHCs deal exceptional damage to hull, and Escort 1 has room for BO: 3 and BO: 2, I'm disinclined to believe that regenerative shields are as good as covariants in PvP, where most escorts play an aggressive "pop everything alpha" style.

Escort 1, using only CRF2, would deal 44,424 damage to its target over the duration of CRF2 (10 sec,) not including Beam: Overload 3. Escort 2 would deal 41,436 damage, not counting torpedoes fired. Mark XI Regenerative [Regx2] shields would add 900 shields over that time on 100 power level, but opponent tac abilities to include Attack Patten Alpha, Fire on my Mark, and Attack Pattern Omega would still be in effect. Two seconds after CRF fails another 900 would be added, but again you would have to deal with 18 additional seconds of enemy abilities.

That said, if regenerative shields are used in conjunction with abilities such as EPtS 3, RSF, and others that help to reduce damage or increase shield resistance, they could be useful. I think they could only be effective in PvP on science ships due to their innate shield buff.
Except there's a diminishing return on any console you stack
  • My values are already "inflated" by shield resistances, though only the ones from shield power alone, which is marginal compared to what powers give you. To give you a "taste" at 50 Shield Power with 25 extra DR: The Cov Capx3 have an effective shield points of 10,852, the Reg Regs 6,149. Same but with 50 extra DRt: 17,635 vs 9,992,5. Last Case After 12 seconds: 19,995 vs 14,692. I suppose the Escort of an Alpha is about 10 seconds long, most crucial buffs don't last much longer.
  • There are no diminishing returns on shield damage reduction. (Notice that I intentionally say damage reduction here, since it simply works different from hull resistance). There is a hard cap at 75 %.
  • There are no consoles or other equipment that grant shield resistance directly, unless you count the resist mods on some shields and the Aegis set special ability.
  • According to some experiments made by Cursix, Torpedo damage is always 25 % of their normal damage against shields. The shield resistance bonus doesn't further reduce this damage.

BTW it might help if you denote what is actually DPS (damage per second, e.g. the damage the escort deals in one second) and what is damage over time (E.g. the damage an escort will deal over a certain amount of time, for example the 10 second alpha we both mention).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
01-03-2011, 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
BTW it might help if you denote what is actually DPS (damage per second, e.g. the damage the escort deals in one second) and what is damage over time (E.g. the damage an escort will deal over a certain amount of time, for example the 10 second alpha we both mention).
Thought I did that :p

Also, you could dload Nagorak's DPS calculator from this thread or this site
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
01-03-2011, 02:32 PM
SP3CTREnyc are you sure? I thought only certain consoles have diminishing returns. Like + to power never have diminishing return.


MustrumRidcully said " Keep in mind that those resistance values are resistance modifiers. They do not become 1:1 damage reduction. There is a formula for this. (See this thread for the math) http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...24#post3258624. "
Yes but 50% resistance on the ship screen is still half damage isn't it? You get less then what the modules say . Or have I got the ship screen wrong?


MustrumRidcully said " There aren't any skills that increase your shield regeneration. The Ship Captain skills improve your shield capacity."
They don't increase your shield regen but they stack. For example my Rotate Shield Frequency gives me 134.4 shield hitpoints per second. Which stacks with the hitpoints from shield regen and factor in damage resistance and you can find you can tank in the 1000's of DPS.



MustrumRidcully said " If regenerative consoles were good (which, by all aco****s, they are not), there is nothing stopping a covariant shield user from also equipping 3 of those regenerative consoles. This brings him closer to th Regenerative shields again."
In my testing that didn't work. When you stack up all the regen options the regen gets so high you cannot die. A covariant shield with regen consoles has to low a regen to stay alive without skills.
How can they be crap when A, they make you invincible in PvE without even needing to use Bridge Officer skills most of the time, and B, they work well in PvP? If I could just figure out the precise shield Hitpoint regen per second I could factor in the precise amount of DPS a ship could tank with resistance. But as far as I can see we have to guess how shield regen consoles stack.




MustrumRidcully said " You will need to bring more then examples of things you can do - do the actual math. I can try to do that tomorrow if you don't feel like playing around with Excel."
I would love to play around in Excel but am having problems with the math as I am unable to confirm the stacking order. Instead I did in game testing via 1v1 match where we started and stopped shooting each other and against NPC's. Not ideal and I would prefer the math way. My conclusion was in PvE with a regen setup and regen consoles I never died even when AFK. Take off the shield regen consoles and /or swap away to a covariant shield and the same NPC could break the shields. I repeated this at least 3 times. The covariant needed skills to stay alive, the regen shield had such a high regen I didn't need skills to tank.

In the 1v1 PvP match the other opponent could not take my shields down. Less accurate I did a number of real match's and didn't have a problem with a full regen setup. Unless I was vastly outnumbered I never died. Not the best test but the best I could figure out how to do without more info on shield regen stacking.



MustrumRidcully said " 75 % shield resistance isn't that difficult to reach, it is a lot more difficult for hull. You need to use your bridge officer abilities for it, but it's done all the time. "
Not sure I agree but again data is hard to get. My base hull resistance is 43.6% due to consoles. My base shield with 125 power is only 25%. Wouldn't the shields have the same stacking problems as the hull? How do you get 75% to shield resistance with the current stacking problems or does damage reduction not have stacking rules? Does the damage reduction stack with resistance or are we sure it's separate? As for the let's not forget bit, shields can be knocked down with phazers and other things, bypassed with penetration and Attack Pattern Beta lowers shield resistance the same as armour doesn't it? I thought Attack Pattern Beta was all damage resistance, not armour only. How does the hull buffer compare to the shield buffer?

Note: In the shield skills it calls them a resistance buff as well as damage reduction. Making me think the damage reduction is just a resistance bonus like the armor skills. One way to test would be to arrange a private 1v1 match and use Attack Pattern Beta with disrupters and see if the damage numbers change.



MustrumRidcully said "If someone is out to get you, you won't have those 45 % hull resistances anymore."
It was not that bad. I spend almost all todays matches at well over 50% resistance then when people are out to get me I end up with around 30 to 37% resistance. I just played the past few match's with the resistance window open. Bit of a smaller sample then I would have liked but it should be enough. Given that I heal more per second and have a larger buffer I think it evens out against shield tanking pretty well even if shields do end up with more resistance/Damage reduction.





Naevius said "The Regen shields are worse (MUCH worse) if you consider [1] the +35% shield capacity console, which multiplies the difference, and [2] the fact that you can actively heal shields via abilities, where overhealing is lost - which again makes the Covariant better, since you have less chance of overhealing"
My point is the +35% shield capacity multiplies the difference once. 4 shield regen consoles multiplies the difference 4 times. Healing abilities give hitpoints per second which stacked with HP regen from the shields means you can tank a lot of incoming DPS. Over healing doesn't matter when you can tank over 4000dps.

I use the following formula to work out DPS tankable for two resistance types 2*A/((1-0.B)+(1-0.C))=xxx dps. If one resistance type just replace b and c with the same number.

For example if I had 50% Plasma resistance, 55% kinetic resistance and 66.6HP/s regen. This means 2*A/((1-0.B)+(1-0.C))= becomes 2*66.6/((1-0.55)+(1-0.50))=140.2So you just copy and past 2*66.6/((1-0.55)+(1-0.50))= into windows Calculator.

As for DPS to me DPS is what you can do per second every second. I tend to average out damage over 60seconds and use that as DPS. DPS is by its nature damage over time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
01-03-2011, 03:27 PM
MustrumRidcully said " You usually don't have to survive a full minute. Your primary concern are those 10 seconds where an Escort hammers you with Beam Overload 3, Attack Pattern Beta 3, Attack Pattern Alpha 3, Cannon Rapid Fire 2 and High Yield Torpedo 2. That's a lot of damage in a very short time."
I don't see that as a concern. Due to shields absorbing part of the Alpha and my high 50.7K armour buffer those 10 seconds are a dint. He won't knock my resistance down much let's say down to 30% which I believe is far more then he would in a 1v1. Anyway let's assume worse case and my resistance is at zero somehow and my shields are for some reason at zero. The Escort does 4000 dps in the first few seconds.

In that first second after the his Alpha Volly I heal 16k hitpoints which assuming his DPS is 4000 and not factoring in what the shields absorbed that 16k will instantly nullity's his first 4 seconds worth of damage. During that first 4 seconds Hazard Emitters would have given me a further 4k effectively meaning by second 5 I have healed 5 seconds of his max DPS. For seconds 6 to 15 I am only healing 1k per second but his volley damage by now has dropped as I assume that Beam Overload 3, High Yield Torpedo 2 has worn off lowering his dps and his weapon power will be well under 100. At second 15/16 my skill has refreshed ready to heal 6k+ and boost resistance and if I am not mistaken his resistance lowering skills would not have refreshed yet and have worn off me putting me back to over 50% resistance.

All that is assuming I am running my high damage setup, not boosting aux for tanking.

Unless I am missing something this works better then shields. The Alpha is no real threat and after the Alpha you can tank more than his DPS. Once you factor in the shield buffer, resistance and possibly of his high yield torps hitting shields for 25% damage and defence from moving you can see armour tanking can tank a surprising amount.

EDIT: Due to me flying Cruisers I automatically assumed the above was an Escort V an Armour tanked Cruiser. Not really sure what would happen with an Shield Exort V Amor Escort. I guess if I am wrong about damage reduction being resistance based then the shields Escort would take less damage but the armor Escort would heal more with more buffer. I wonder who would win assuming same weapons and DPS output?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
01-03-2011, 05:37 PM
Pardon, but what ability is Attack Pattern Alpha 3. It doesn't seem to be in the list of skills
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
01-04-2011, 01:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
*snip*
This might be helpful for you and the readability of your posts, Pottsey:
To create a quote, you can use the [ QUOTE] tags.

[ QUOTE]
quote goes here
[/ QUOTE]
(Just remove the empty space before the Qs to make it the acutal tag. I took the liberty to rework your posts in my quote so they use quote tags to illustrate this a little better.

Quote:
Quote:
There aren't any skills that increase your shield regeneration. The Ship Captain skills improve your shield capacity.
They don't increase your shield regen but they stack. For example my Rotate Shield Frequency gives me 134.4 shield hitpoints per second. Which stacks with the hitpoints from shield regen and factor in damage resistance and you can find you can tank in the 1000's of DPS.
Oh, you are talking about Bridge Officer or Captain abilities, not skills.
Rotate Shield Frequency gives you 134.4 shield hit points per second no matter what kind of shield you use. So Regenerative Shields have no additional advantage here, Covariants get just as much out of this as Regenerative or Regular or Resilient Shields. All this do is reducing the difference between regenerative and covariant shield's regeneration.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully
If regenerative consoles were good (which, by all aco****s, they are not), there is nothing stopping a covariant shield user from also equipping 3 of those regenerative consoles. This brings him closer to th Regenerative shields again.
In my testing that didn't work. When you stack up all the regen options the regen gets so high you cannot die. A covariant shield with regen consoles has to low a regen to stay alive without skills.
How can they be crap when A, they make you invincible in PvE without even needing to use Bridge Officer skills most of the time, and B, they work well in PvP? If I could just figure out the precise shield Hitpoint regen per second I could factor in the precise amount of DPS a ship could tank with resistance. But as far as I can see we have to guess how shield regen consoles stack.
In PvE, it is really easy to become invincible. In PvP, it's not. You have to deal with significant damage bursts from individual enemies, in addition to focused fire. The damage you experience in PvP exceeds the typical damage output of NPCs a lot. You might come somewhat closer to that kind of damage output if you play at Elite difficulty. (But try if you are still invincible there with your setup.)



Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully
75 % shield resistance isn't that difficult to reach, it is a lot more difficult for hull. You need to use your bridge officer abilities for it, but it's done all the time. "
Not sure I agree but again data is hard to get. My base hull resistance is 43.6% due to consoles. My base shield with 125 power is only 25%. Wouldn't the shields have the same stacking problems as the hull?

How do you get 75% to shield resistance with the current stacking problems or does damage reduction not have stacking rules? Does the damage reduction stack with resistance or are we sure it's separate?
Shield damage Reduction and Hull Resistance work differently. Hull Resistance Modifiers have diminishing returns. Shield damage reduction does not. 125 power gives you 25 %, and a lowly Emergency Power to Shields I should give another 20 or so (and it also means you don't have to run with 125 power actually, you can afford less shield power and get the remaining points from Emergency Power to Shields.)

I try to use different terms for shield damage reduction and hull resistances, because they are different.

Shield damage reduction reduces the damage that your shield takes.
It does not affect damage to your hull. This means bleedthrough is not affected by damage reduction from shields, and if your shields are gone, shield damage reduction does not reduce the damage to your hull, either. There is a window where shield damage reduction affects your hull damage, and that is when the damage your shield takes exceeds the available shield points and the remainder of the damage is applied to your hull. Cursis, one of the posters on this board, mentioned this as a "problem", since it significantly increases the value of having just a sliver of shields against incoming damage.

Your hull has its own resistance, and reduces damage it takes based on that resistance alone.

Quote:
As for the let's not forget bit, shields can be knocked down with phazers and other things, bypassed with penetration and Attack Pattern Beta lowers shield resistance the same as armour doesn't it? I thought Attack Pattern Beta was all damage resistance, not armour only. How does the hull buffer compare to the shield buffer?
Attack Pattern Beta and similar effects apply a penalty to your resistance. Resistances always applies to your hull. Shield Damage Reduction applies to your shields.


Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naevius[/QUOTE
The Regen shields are worse (MUCH worse) if you consider [1] the +35% shield capacity console, which multiplies the difference, and [2] the fact that you can actively heal shields via abilities, where overhealing is lost - which again makes the Covariant better, since you have less chance of overhealing
My point is the +35% shield capacity multiplies the difference once. 4 shield regen consoles multiplies the difference 4 times. Healing abilities give hitpoints per second which stacked with HP regen from the shields means you can tank a lot of incoming DPS. Over healing doesn't matter when you can tank over 4000dps.
As I said, if you count your shield regeneration four times, you need to count your shield capacity twice, too. After all, you can distribute your shield capacity between shields, too. A Covariant shield has more shield points to distribute, a Regenerative Shield restores more shield points. I should probably change my post to reflect this.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
01-04-2011, 01:16 AM
Quote:
Pardon, but what ability is Attack Pattern Alpha 3. It doesn't seem to be in the list of skills
It's a Tactical Officer Captain Ability. At Rear or Vice Admiral Levels, you should have the 3rd rank of this skill - if you're a Tactical Officer.

---

Edit: The terminology in Startrek Online mechanics could really be clearer. I trie to make these distinction:
  • Skills: Refers to Captain Skills that you train as you level, or possible the skill points you spend on your bridge officers.
  • Abilities or Powers: Abilities granted by your career (like Rotate Shield Frequency or Attack Pattern Alpha), your Bridge Officers (like Scramble Sensors or Beam Overload) or equipment (Shield Battery). Basically, it's something you click in combat.
  • Damage Resistance: The thing reducing damage to your hull.
  • (Shield) Damage Reduction: The thing reducing damage to your shields.
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