Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 31
01-04-2011, 06:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
MustrumRidcully you say" And if it's longer then a minute, I know that there are a lot of heals flying." But isn't that the point of a regen setup? You have that healing flying around by default without using skills. Have you even tested a full regen setup in PvP or are you just making one big assumption?
As a matter of fact, for a long time - basically until I made this comparison chart - I was a big fan of Regenerative Shields. I particularly used them on my Cruiser, since I knew I would be running high shield power values thanks to EPtS.

I kinda intended to make the chart and prove that regenerative shields are pretty good actually. Well... unfortunately the numbers don't really support it.

Quote:
Why not do the math. It doesn't seem fair to draw a comparison between the two shields based on assumptions. A fair comparison needs to look at how much DPS a regen setup can tank. Otherwise you cannot work out which shield is better.
You still seem to be missing one big point - no matter how big the shield regeneration is your shields provide you innately. Shield heals don't care about that. They just give exactly the amount of healing that it says, independent of the shields you equip. The more you rely on shield heals anyway, the less important shield regeneration becomes.

When I get home, I can give you some healing stats, I suppose, to compare them to shield capacity and shield regeneration. But at this point, we are pretty much leaving the "safe" realm of pure math and have to enter the dangerous territory of getting combat stats from our ships.

Quote:
According to the dev post it suggests I am right. He says shields pre changes don't have diminishing returns but they are adding in diminishing returns with a 75% cap.

" We are getting tech support for diminishing returns on shield fragility (shield damage resistance). The current plan is to diminish towards a max of 75% resistance (shields would take at a minimum 25% of the original damage)."
Very clearly says shields are getting diminishing returns but it's not implanted in the first wave of testing. The first wave was a cap only with diminishing returns being added later.
But there was never a wave of testing where they added diminishing returns. Unless you assume that they sneaked it in without mentioning it in any of the updates, and no one noticed the difference.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 32
01-04-2011, 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
"They just give exactly the amount of healing that it says, independent of the shields you equip. The more you rely on shield heals anyway, the less important shield regeneration becomes."
I don't agree. If you can tank 2000dps from shield heals and tank 2000dps from shield regeneration that means you can tank a 4000DPS Escort and never die. While a buffer Covariant would die pretty fast.
I don't see how we are leaving the "safe" realm of pure math. This is just pure math. All we need to do is get the real regen numbers then we can use pure math to work out just how good or how bad regen shields really are.

For example Let's say a 10631.25 buffer Covariant shield would effectively have 42525 buffer if he diverts all his 4 facing into the front shield. Assuming a low 50% resistance and factoring in his low HP regen then an enemy doing 1000 DPS would kill him in 102seconds without heal skills. While a regen setup would have 853.76 HP regen (213.25 from each facing) being diverted into his front shields meaning he could survive over 620 seconds without heal skills. All depending of course how shield regen stacks.
Now do Covariant look better? It seems to me a regen shields lasts almost x6 longer

Am I doing this next bit right? 125power gives 400% regen. Four Consoles give 52%..A regen shield is 232 HP regen or a Borg regen is 271 from memory. 232+452%=1280. or 271+452%=1495.92
Divide by 6 and you get 213.44 per facing per second. Or 249.32 per facing per second for the Borg shield.
249.32 regen per facing means with 0% resistance you can tank 1000DPS by diverting all regne to foward shields without using any healing skills. That means roughly at 50% resistance and not factoring in extra shield regen from skills or heals then you can tank 2000dps just from the standard shield regeneration.

If I am wrong about resistance and you hit 75% that means you can tank 3989.12 DPS just from the passive shield regen not factoring in extra heals or regen from skills. More then enough to tank a single Escort.Now factor in healing skills and you are tanking far more ships then a Covariant setup can. I see no reason why a maxed out regen setup with heals cannot tank 2 or 3 ships.

Now unless I messed up the math which is possbile regen shields seem to far out tank Covariant shields.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 33
01-04-2011, 07:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
I don't agree. If you can tank 2000dps from shield heals and tank 2000dps from shield regeneration that means you can tank a 4000DPS Escort and never die. While a buffer Covariant would die pretty fast.
I don't see how we are leaving the "safe" realm of pure math. This is just pure math. All we need to do is get the real regen numbers then we can use pure math to work out just how good or how bad regen shields really are.

For example Let's say a 10631.25 buffer Covariant shield would effectively have 42525 buffer if he diverts all his 4 facing into the front shield. Assuming a low 50% resistance and factoring in his low HP regen then an enemy doing 1000 DPS would kill him in 102seconds without heal skills. While a regen setup would have 853.76 HP regen (213.25 from each facing) being diverted into his front shields meaning he could survive over 620 seconds without heal skills. All depending of course how shield regen stacks.
Now do Covariant look better? It seems to me a regen shields lasts almost x6 longer
But where is the 1000 DPS coming from? Is that a representative value?

One thing to consider in STO is that damage often comes in significant bursts. Suddenly, 3 enemy ships focus fire on you. Or an Escort pops all its buff and is king of damage for 10 seconds. That's the time where your shields and hull have to actually last. The next 30 seconds might be totally uneventful. (Maybe because you're respawning and full-impulsing back into combat, or because the Escort has to retreat or got popped because it has taken too much damage from you and your comrades).

Of course, if the enemy only deals barely enough damage to beat a covariant shield's regeneration, the regenerative shield is better. My calculations show at what point that would be the case.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 34
01-04-2011, 08:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
But where is the 1000 DPS coming from? Is that a representative value?
.......Of course, if the enemy only deals barely enough damage to beat a covariant shield's regeneration, the regenerative shield is better. My calculations show at what point that would be the case.
Not really. You only show the time it takes a regen shield to heal the same base hitpoints as a covariant shield that is not the same as how long you survive for.

According to my spreadsheet by the time a covariant shield makes you last longer in combat then a regen setup you are talking about massive incoming DPS and being dead in around 20seconds. By that time it doesn't really matter which setup you choose.

For example covariant buffer with a regen of 84 and buffer of 42525 against a Regen shield with a buffer of 22120 and regen of 853 (The following is assuming all facing regen and buffer diverted to forward shield)

Survival times at

1000 DPS, 102.33 seconds for covariant, never die with Regen shield.
1500 DPS, 63.89 seconds for covariant, never die with Regen shield.
2000 DPS, 46 seconds for covariant, 153 seconds with Regen shield.
2500 DPS, 36seconds for covariant, 56.1 seconds with Regen shield
3000 DPS, 30 seconds for covariant, 34 seconds with Regen shield
4000 DPS. 22 seconds for covariant, 19 seconds for Regen shield
5000 DPS, 17seconds for covariant, 13 seconds for Regen shield

Swap that regen shield for the Borg regen shield and things look even worse for covariant shields. the above is also not factoring in extra regen or heals from skills which further makes the covariant look worse.
It seems to me the only point a covariant shield lasts longer is the point you are already dead and there is only seconds in it. But a regen can keep you alive when a covariant would mean you died.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 35
01-04-2011, 08:35 AM
I hope this makes sense as it's a little messy. Assuming you are an Engineering pilot in a Cruiser

Emergency power to shields effectively gives you 78.3 hitpoints per second. (Its heal divided over 30seconds)
125 shield power with x2 Emergency power to shields cycling should be doable.
Borg shield gives 273 HP regen
Four consoles is 52% regen
Cycling between Transfer Shield Strength II and I will give about 85 hitpoints a second on average.

Ignoring Rotate shield Frequency, EPS and other skills/abilities you cannot keep up constantly. That leaves us with

273+452%=1506.96)
1506.96/6=251.16
251.16+85+78.3=414.46
414.46x4=1657.84 ( putting regen from all facing into side being hit)
75% resistance means
2*1657.84 /((1-0.75)+(1-0.75))= 6631.36DPs tankable.

So without RSP, Rotate shield Frequency, EPS and other skills and without the Borg set shield bonus in theory a full Regen setup can tank 6631.36DPS. With short bursts of being able to tank more than that due to the above skills that are not constantly on. Now add on your defence bonus from moving and you should be able to tank x2 full damage Escorts without any problem or at the very least last much longer then a covariant shields setup.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 36
01-04-2011, 09:06 AM
Two things you dont have in mind Mustrum:

With lower capacity, you also need lower capacity heals.. Where with a 15k shield capacity you need high levels of heals to "fill" up .. You can make due with L1 or 2 abilities, freeing higher level BO slots for other abilities.

Also in PvP, youll rarely fly around with all facings at 100%... Often in intense fights your shields will be low, and at that point the regenerative are better..

On the other hand the Regen shields are no good, if you blow up near instantly.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 37
01-04-2011, 09:36 AM
Quote:
Two things you dont have in mind Mustrum:

With lower capacity, you also need lower capacity heals.. Where with a 15k shield capacity you need high levels of heals to "fill" up .. You can make due with L1 or 2 abilities, freeing higher level BO slots for other abilities.

Also in PvP, youll rarely fly around with all facings at 100%... Often in intense fights your shields will be low, and at that point the regenerative are better..

On the other hand the Regen shields are no good, if you blow up near instantly.
I don't know, that doesn't sound like a good argument. It sounds more as if the Covariant shields will end up using their regeneration more often then the Regenerative, since the Regenerative shields are already at full capacity from the heals.

To whtstand damage, it doesn't matter if your shields are at 50 % and have 1000 hit points or at 100 % and have 1000 hit points.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 38
01-04-2011, 09:41 AM
Does a fully stacked (or near as I can get) shield resistances not mitigate enough alpha damage to allow any type of shielding that is not covariant to be useful as a defense against the alpha?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 39
01-04-2011, 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
I "It sounds more as if the Covariant shields will end up using their regeneration more often then the Regenerative, since the Regenerative shields are already at full capacity from the heals.".
What it means is a Covariant needs to use heal skills just to catch up with a regen shield without heal skills. At the point when a Covariant needs heal skills to stay alive the regen shield keeps you alive without heal skills. When the incoming damage breaks the Covariant tank with heals then there is nothing left to fall back on. With the regen shield you still have the heal skills to boost your tank further so you have something to fall back on meaning you can stay alive.

If Regenerative shields are at full capacity it means your tank is holding and you cannot die. You are not wasting heals, it means you have the better setup as you don't need the extra heals.

The simple fact is a regen shield setup can tank far more than a Covariant shield setup. A Borg regen shield with resistance is more than enough to survive an Alpha strike and after Alpha the only thing that matters is tankable DPS.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 40
01-04-2011, 10:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
For example covariant buffer with a regen of 84 and buffer of 42525 against a Regen shield with a buffer of 22120 and regen of 853 (The following is assuming all facing regen and buffer diverted to forward shield)
1. Shields don't transfer to individual facings quickly enough for regenerative shields to keep up with an average of 41435 damage over ten seconds plus an incalculable amount of torpedo damage. The number is derived from Nagorak's DPS calculator and can be found at the top of Page 2.

2. To augment shield transfer rate, you would have to sacrifice a console slot typically alotted to hull resistance or, in the case of this thread, shield regeneration. Ultimately, the ability to shuffle regenerative shield facings would be more important in the discussion of survivability than bolstering regeneration of all shield facings.

3. The 41435 damage over ten seconds does not include other popular damage magnifiers, such as Attack Pattern Omega (bonus to energy and kinetic damage), Attack Pattern Alpha (bonus to damage, crit chance and severity), Fire on my Mark (damage resist debuff on target), and Go Down Fighting (base +50% bonus damage, scales as user health depletes). These abilities last longer than ten seconds as well, demanding that the facing shield stand up to a minimum 90000 damage over a minimum of twenty seconds. Since you cannot put your full shield power into one facing at any one time, this is impossible to sustain.

Covariant shields give you survivability against that first strike and the ability to remain alive through shield heals. The second part of this statement is the most important. Unlike the regenerative shields that have a low capacity and, as such, force you to rely heavily on innate regenerative abilities, Covariant shields allow you to stack high level and effective shield healing abilities such as EPtS3 and TSS 3 to regain a high shield strength. PvP is all about peak heals, imo, since good teamwork on either or both sides can make HoT inadequate.

While the regenerative shields do recover quickly, no one's math in this thread is taking into account the increased hull damage that comes from decreased shield capacity. If you acknowledge that your shields would be comparatively low for a substantial portion of PvP, you should prepare your ship with consoles and abilities that insulate or protect your hull, thus taking away high level shield healing abilities. On a cruiser this is not particularly damaging, but on a science ship or escort this can hurt.
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