Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
01-04-2011, 11:34 AM
Okay, I tried to make myself a test map with the Foundry for getting more data on damage over time, and stuff like that, but the mission search is broken. And I get to much noise in regular maps. Meh. And I don't even know if the combat log parser I found can distinguish shield and hull damage. Actually I know that he doesn't care to tell the difference, what I don't know is if he tracks shield damage at all. Meh. Now I want more pew pew.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
01-04-2011, 12:03 PM
Well I just did some real PvP matches and a 1v1 for testing and the regen only setup worked well. I still prefer armour tanking but the shield balance was pretty much all I needed to stay alive in the 1v1.
Shields do transfer to individual facings quickly enough to keep you alive when mixed in with regen. Regen shields do survive the Alpha strike although you sometimes need EPtS then after tjhe Alpha just use shield balance. Regen shields are not as bad as people say and they work well.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
01-04-2011, 12:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
Well I just did some real PvP matches and a 1v1 for testing and the regen only setup worked well. I still prefer armour tanking but the shield balance was pretty much all I needed to stay alive in the 1v1.
Shields do transfer to individual facings quickly enough to keep you alive when mixed in with regen. Regen shields do survive the Alpha strike although you sometimes need EPtS then after tjhe Alpha just use shield balance. Regen shields are not as bad as people say and they work well.
what ship were you using? what were your power settings? what kind of shield? what was your speed? total defense?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
01-04-2011, 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Quote:
Another thing I often wondered, If you want buffer why even use Covariant shields. Why not use armor? I armor tank as it seems far better then shield regen or shield buffer. I never understood why so many people shield tank.
It's simply because it is more effective currently in the game. Shield resistances are easy to get and have a great uptime thanks to Emergency Power to Shields. Also, it is kinda more forgiving if you can rely on your shields too last some time and only have in emergency cases fix your hull - if you screw up shield healing, you still got some hull, but if you screw up hull, you're dead.
And to add further to this, for PvE, there's the nature of NPC damage.

NPCs seem to run very low power settings, only 50 attack power aka balanced and, most likely, no big focus on energy weapon consoles unlike players. Because of this (or just however the devs tuned 'em), the ratio of NPC energy weapon damage to torpedo damage differs greatly from the norm you'd see from players. On normal, they'll hit about as hard with torps as players, but be considerably weaker, about 1/3rd or less, with energy weapons. The most commonly used burst damage power by NPCs is also torpedo related, in T:HY. The hardest hitting thing they have is also the one most likely to be made to hit even harder.

So if you let an NPC get to your hull, it hurts a lot more, simply because you are giving them 4x the torpedo damage. And if you play on difficulties higher than normal, all the NPC damage scales up, making those torpedoes truly killer.

Shields shrug off 75% of 90% of that damage. Resists just cannot match that. Especially since Engineering Team no longer has resists.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
01-04-2011, 11:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SP3CTREnyc
what ship were you using? what were your power settings? what kind of shield? what was your speed? total defense?
About to head to work so I don't have time to log in and post accurate numbers. I run a Advanced Heavy Cruiser Retrofit with around 100 shield power and I only have EPtS2 so it would have been just short of 125 power. The rest it dumped into weapons which would have been at around 70/80 ish?. Engines and Aux set at 25 which means around 40/50's?. The shield was the Borg regen shield with x4 consoles at 13% regen. Zero skills in shield skills as I am set up as an armor tanker. I don't think I ever once died fast enough for a buffer shield to have been better. I also don't think I ever died in under 20 to 30seconds which is about the time a typical regen setup heals as much hitpoints as a typical buffer setup factoring in gear.

As for speed and defense in the 1v1 I was stationary or at the lowest speed so I assume zero defense. As for real matches between 50 and 100% power as I sometimes slow down to boost turn rate. To be honest I don't really watch defense so I have no idea what levels it was at.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
01-05-2011, 01:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Shield damage Reduction and Hull Resistance work differently. Hull Resistance Modifiers have diminishing returns. Shield damage reduction does not. 125 power gives you 25 %, and a lowly Emergency Power to Shields I should give another 20 or so (and it also means you don't have to run with 125 power actually, you can afford less shield power and get the remaining points from Emergency Power to Shields.)
My own testing has shown that 125 power should give about 15% shield damage reduction. The formula appears to be (shield_power_level - 50) / 460, not shield_power_level / 500 as is commonly assumed.

And, yes, if your shield power level is below 50, your shields take additional damage.

edit: changed (shield_power_level - 50) / 500 to (shield_power_level - 50) / 460. The 460 I cannot guarantee, but it seems to work with some testing I did today. It might be 450 instead of 460. I might have screwed it up and it is actually 500. Needs further testing at various power levels (more time than I'm willing to spend) and verification by someone else testing it. Still, for now, I"m saying the divisor is 460.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
01-05-2011, 02:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
Not sure I agree but again data is hard to get. My base hull resistance is 43.6% due to consoles. My base shield with 125 power is only 25%. Wouldn't the shields have the same stacking problems as the hull? How do you get 75% to shield resistance with the current stacking problems or does damage reduction not have stacking rules? Does the damage reduction stack with resistance or are we sure it's separate?
Since I don't think anyone has explained how shield damage reduction stacking works, thought I would:

Shield damage reduction has its own stacking rules. It is multiplicative, each applied in sequence.

An example of each, with 0, 1, and 2 buffs that provide 25%, against a hit that deals 100 base damage to the shield, showing how much damage the shield would take:

Shield damage reduction:
0 buff: 100
1 buff: (100 * (1.0 - 0.25)) = 75
2 buff: (100 * (1.0 - 0.25) * (1.0 - 0.25)) = 56.25


And the same buffs if they were resist buffs, resisting hull damage:

Resists:
0 buff: 100
1 buff: (100 / (1+0.25)) = 80
2 buff: (100 / (1+0.25 + 0.25)) = 66.7
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 48
01-05-2011, 10:36 AM
I made a relatively short test (7 Fights) using the Foundry Mission "Mustrum's Combat Simulator" I created for this purpose.
With my Defiant and using between 3-4 damage buffs (no resistance debuffs) I finished a Neg'Var off in about 20 seconds dealing (according to the combat log parser) 55,000 to 65,000 damge with a DPS around 3,300.
The DPS wasn't sustainable for long, but it didn't have to either, obviously.

I didn't use Beam Overload 3, my current Tactical Captain on Tribble doesn't have that. I was limited to using Attack Pattern Alpha, Omega, Cannon Rapid Fire 1 or 2, Go Down Fighting and Tactical Team 1. (I didn't use all the buffs every combat.)
The damage values accrued over the time where probably what's required to kill off a Neg'Var, so they couldn't climb much higher, but therefore the time couldn't climb much higher, either.

Values per Shield Facing of shield points generated by shield at:
50 % Resistance, 100 Shield Power
  • Covariant Capx2 Shield (on one facing): 28.233 (regenerating 354 hp per 6 seconds or 59 per sec)
  • Regenerative Regx2 Shield (on one facing): 22723 (regenerating 705 hp per 6 seconds or 117.5 per sec)
Both regeneration values are notably below the DPS achievable within those 24 seconds.

Since a single Escort can only shoot at one shield facing at a time (or if it doesn't spreads the damage around), with distributing shield power, a player should get 4 times out of his shields in this time, leading us to:
Covariant: 112.932 shield points total capacity; 1416 Reg / 6 sec or 236/sec
Regenerative: 90.892 shield points total capacity; 2820 Reg / 6 sec or 470/sec
Even now, the regeneration cannot really hold up to the DPS. Not so surprising, probably.

My Escort would have brought the covariants shield user to about 50 % of its total shield points across all facings, and the regenerative shield user to about 40 % of its hit points.

This is assuming people balance their shields perfectly and utilize all shield regeneration they have, and no other heals.

If you wonder how your shields would fare without the resistance - well, that means effectively reducing the above values by half. Which would suddenly mean that my Escort would have melted any of those shields off.

Maybe someone else is interested in using his perfect Escort setup in my simulator and the combat log parser to create more representative values (particularly requiring more tests to balance out errors and the like. I won't get to that this week, I think.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
01-05-2011, 10:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
"Even now, the regeneration cannot really hold up to the DPS. Not so surprising, probably
But you are only looking at half the picture once you add heals in you end up in a situation here the regen shield survives and the Covariant shield dies. So the Regen shields ends up being much better. No matter what there is always a large area in DPS where a Covariant shield dies and a regen shields stays alive. By the time a Covariant shield lasts longer then a regen shield you are dead in such a small amount of time it was a bit pointless taking the Covariant shield.

Also you are limiting the regen shield by only having 100 power. A 100 base power is fine as long as you use EPtS to get to 125.

EDIT: I have been playing a number of 1v1 match's and not one person has yet to kill me as the regen shield can tank well over 3000dps. when you add the heal DPS tanked with the regen DPS tanked.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
01-05-2011, 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
But you are only looking at half the picture once you add heals in you end up in a situation here the regen shield survives and the Covariant shield dies.
No, that's not what is happening. Regenerative Shields do not heal more from shield heals then covariants. I don't know why you are always making this assumption, but it's plain wrong. Both type of shields get the same number of points from heals. Covariants need more heals to recover to full health, but that is just because they also have more hit points, and that is is never a disadvantage, unless you play worse if your shields are not depicted at 100 % strength.

Quote:
Also you are limiting the regen shield by only having 100 power. A 100 base power is fine as long as you use EPtS to get to 125.
Since you insist, your numbers for 125 shield power:
Covariant: 35768 per facing, 564 regeneration per 6 seconds
Regenerative: 31412 per facing, 864 regeneration per 6 seconds.
The Covariant has still gotten more shield points at the 24 second mark. Thinks will equalize at about the 42 second mark, and beyond, the regenerative has gotten more.

Quote:
EDIT: I have been playing a number of 1v1 match's and not one person has yet to kill me as the regen shield can tank well over 3000dps. when you add the heal DPS tanked with the regen DPS tanked.
So you have tried the same with covariant shields and died?
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