Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 51
01-05-2011, 11:36 AM
Quote:
Pottsey Wrote: A full regen setups works just as well if not better. I found with the best regeneration shields with 4 consoles each boosting 14% to shield recharge I could pretty much never die.
Question, is having multiple +13% Shield Regen Rate Engy consoles effective? From my understanding of how they stack (could be wrong, would love to be in fact), isn't the diminished returns beyond that of the first console kind of a waste? I thought I had read somewhere that after the first +13% console, the next console bonus would only be applied to the bonus Regen rate of the first, and so on...

If that is the case, wouldn't having multiple shield power consoles be more effective for shield tanking? (with ONE +13% shield Regen Console that is, and a Field Gen of course )
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 52
01-05-2011, 01:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
" No, that's not what is happening. Regenerative Shields do not heal more from shield heals then covariants. I don't know why you are always making this assumption, but it's plain wrong. Both type of shields get the same number of points from heals."
Yes that is what is happening, its math. The amount of DPS you can tank is not the same. The amount of DPS you can tank with a Regenerative shield with heals is far more then the DPS you can tank with a covariant shield with heals even if the heals are the same. That's the key difference that makes Regenerative Shields so great. That aside we are not even sure if both types of shields get the same benefit from heals. We have no idea how skill shield regeneration stacks with consoles shield regeneration. But ignoring that unknown factor for now, what we do know is the damage reduction/resistance from heal skills benefits regen shields far more in terms of have much DPS you can tank before being dead.

You said " So you have tried the same with covariant shields and died?"
Yes I have. In fact like I said before the heal rate of the Regenerative Shields with consuls was so high that sometimes I didn't even need to use heal skills. With the covariant you need to use heal skills just to tank the same amount of DPS as the Regenerative Shields can tank without heal skills. Once you add heals skills onto the Regenerative Shields you end up far in advance of what a covariants can tank. There is a point in DPS being dealt to you where covariant shields with heals die and Regenerative Shields with the same heals keep you alive. There is no argument against that.

As the math shows it takes a lot less DPS to kill someone with a covariants shield then it does to kill someone with a regen shield.

EDIT: Another way to look at it is think of a long bar. On the far left is low damage on the far right is high damage. The bar is then split into3 key stages. At the far left of the bar we have stage one where low DPS is being dealt with both covariant and regen shields never ending up dead. In the 2nd stage of the bar we have more DPS being dealt where a covariant shield dies but a regen shield keeps you alive. The smallest part of the bar is the far right where the damage is high enough to kill both the regen shield and the covariant but although both die the covariant lasts a handful of seconds longer.

Is the covariant shield really worth giving up surviving in the 2nd stage of the damage bar so you can live seconds longer in the 3rd stage? From what I have seen of PvP its not.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 53
01-05-2011, 01:44 PM
Rafeism no one knows how regen consoles stack. As far as I can tell there is no data if there are diminished returns or if they are one of the consoles that have zero diminished returns. I would love to find out how it all stacks but have been unable to so far. I would also like to see some shield regen number on the defence screen.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 54
01-05-2011, 02:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pottsey
Yes that is what is happening, its math. The amount of DPS you can tank is not the same. The amount of DPS you can tank with a Regenerative shield with heals is far more then the DPS you can tank with a covariant shield with heals even if the heals are the same. That's the key difference that makes Regenerative Shields so great.
What kind of math or data do you use for this? I know that my own charts shows at what points, if shields always get a chance to regenerate on their own, when the regenerative shield will have overall have generated more shield points then covariants.

The point here is - you really have to 100 % utilize these sheilds. In practical gameplay, there are significant amount of times where you don't. Your shields are full and they won't get any fuller, no matter how good your heals or regeneration values are. That's why Covariants can beat Regenerative shields, since you are usually not under fire for a full minute or so. If you generally are, yes, the regenerative might be better (absent of additional heals at least that would easier lead to "overheals", e.g points that are not applied since your shields are already maxed, or maxed out shields and so no more regeneration.)


If you really happen to be under a lot of constant fire for extended periods of time, then yes, regenerative shields might be great. If you often are under ire only for short, intense bursts, it takes about 40 seconds of those bursts for you to make the regeneratives better, if less, covariants beat it. That's what my chartssuggests. (Well, at least in the range of 100 to 125 shield power)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 55
01-05-2011, 02:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafeism
Question, is having multiple +13% Shield Regen Rate Engy consoles effective? From my understanding of how they stack (could be wrong, would love to be in fact), isn't the diminished returns beyond that of the first console kind of a waste? I thought I had read somewhere that after the first +13% console, the next console bonus would only be applied to the bonus Regen rate of the first, and so on...
It'd be extremely unlikely that they have DR. All consoles stack linearly, with the exception of shield capacity which just doesn't stack period. And the second working different than the first? Better odds of winning the lottery than that being the case. But it should be easy enough to test. After I pick up a second CRM 200 (yay stupid asteroid bug fixed at last), I'll give it a quick look over.

Quote:
If that is the case, wouldn't having multiple shield power consoles be more effective for shield tanking? (with ONE +13% shield Regen Console that is, and a Field Gen of course )
Not if you can get to 125 shield power easily without shield power consoles. And when you combine EPtS, skill bonuses like shield performance, and ship bonuses like a cruiser's +5, that is pretty easy to do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 56
01-05-2011, 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axterix
It'd be extremely unlikely that they have DR. All consoles stack linearly....
There are several consoles that do not stack linearly... Armors for example, lets say 35% resist to X, when you apply a second, you don't get another 35% resist, it will actually come to about 41& TOTAL Resist with BOTH, thats just one example. So congrats, you just won the lottery :p


So when you have a +13% Shield Regen console, A second may not give you another 13%, you might end up with 20% total regen rate buff. That was my question, what, if any DR exist for these consoles, and to what rate, BECAUSE some consoles have DR.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 57
01-05-2011, 03:36 PM
Okay, done testing. With the help of a friendly borg sphere, got the following:

With 74 shield power, my shield was regening between 235-237 per tick, which is about right on the money for an Aegis shield at level 51 with that power level.

Adding a single uncommon Mk XI amplifier increased it, resulting in numbers from 261-264 per tick. This is an 11% increase, which matches the number shown on the console.

Adding a second of those consoles resulted in numbers from 262-263 per tick. This is a 0% increase from 1 console.

Then, went back and checked it out with shield power cranked up to 115. The base shield tick was as expected for 115 power. Adding one console increased the tick size by 11%. A second console resulted in no further increase.

Conclusions:

1. The console's modifier is applied to the shield regen factoring in power level, not to the base shield regen.

2. This console, like the shield capacity one, does not stack.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 58
01-05-2011, 03:46 PM
Is there a reason Resilient shields weren't included? I ask becauuse I do find the 5% absorption 5% bleedthough setup works very well on top of stacked resistences, but don't have the time to do a broad statistical analysis; so is there some drawback to Resilient shield in general for some reason I'n not aware of?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 59
01-05-2011, 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafeism
There are several consoles that do not stack linearly... Armors for example, lets say 35% resist to X, when you apply a second, you don't get another 35% resist, it will actually come to about 41& TOTAL Resist with BOTH, thats just one example. So congrats, you just won the lottery :p
Incorrect. The consoles stack linearly. 2 7.5% consoles gives the same result as a single 15% one. Linear, there is no DR on stacking consoles.

Now, whether you decide to view now those numbers are used as having DR, that isn't something I'm going to argue about in this thread. Suffice it to say that for any console that stacks, I can show you two ways to look at it. One way which says it has DR and one which says it doesn't. Additionally, you take a certain amount of DPS gain from tactical consoles and counter it with the same amount of resists. Note the time it takes to kill something. Then double up the amount of both. And you'll see it takes the exact same time to deal that much damage to the target (hull only, ignoring heals, etc, of course). Yet one is considered linear but the other has DR. All just a matter of perspective, really But that isn't this thread. This one is about shields.

The consoles have no DR in and of themselves.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go "thank" a borg sphere for his help in testing how that console actually works.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 60
01-05-2011, 03:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axterix
Okay, done testing...

....

2. This console, like the shield capacity one, does not stack.

Nicely Done!
Good to know. I figured it was way too good to be true that you could tank with 4 of these running. I for one have always just ran with one, expecting the returns of a second console to be a waste compared to something more useful.
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