Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 61
01-05-2011, 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axterix
Incorrect. The consoles stack linearly. 2 7.5% consoles gives the same result as a single 15% one. Linear, there is no DR on stacking consoles.

Now, whether you decide to view now those numbers are used as having DR, that isn't something I'm going to argue about in this thread. Suffice it to say that for any console that stacks, I can show you two ways to look at it. One way which says it has DR and one which says it doesn't. Additionally, you take a certain amount of DPS gain from tactical consoles and counter it with the same amount of resists. Note the time it takes to kill something. Then double up the amount of both. And you'll see it takes the exact same time to deal that much damage to the target (hull only, ignoring heals, etc, of course). Yet one is considered linear but the other has DR. All just a matter of perspective, really But that isn't this thread. This one is about shields.

The consoles have no DR in and of themselves.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go "thank" a borg sphere for his help in testing how that console actually works.
Merely an Academic Distinction. Whether you want to call it "DR" or " A second one is less useful", is irrelevant. thanks for the ealier post tho that was helpfull.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 62
01-05-2011, 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
"That's why Covariants can beat Regenerative shields, since you are usually not under fire for a full minute or so. If you generally are, yes, the regenerative might be better (absent of additional heals at least that would easier lead to "overheals", e.g points that are not applied since your shields are already maxed, or maxed out shields and so no more regeneration.)"
But if you are in a situation when you can overheal that means the regen shield is in a situation when it can tank the DPS incoming and you cannot die. The point of a regen shield is if you are in a no more regeneration zone that means you are tanking the incoming DPS ok.
For a Regen shield to over heal and a Covariants shield not to over heal it normally means the regen shield is gaining back enough shield hitpoints to not need to full heal. That's a good thing not a bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
" If you often are under ire only for short, intense bursts, it takes about 40 seconds of those bursts for you to make the regeneratives better, if less, covariants beat it. That's what my chartssuggests. (Well, at least in the range of 100 to 125 shield power)"
What about all the times you last over 40sceonds but die as a covariant and live as a regen shield? Doesn't that have some value?
Anyway how often do engagements last under 60seconds, very rarely I thought? I am sure I normally get to trigger more than 3 skills in a combat but not 100% sure. Tonight I will time it. With x2 EPtW and x2 High Yield Torps by the timer either one has triggered 3 times I know 60sdeconds has past.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 63
01-05-2011, 11:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
"What kind of math or data do you use for this? I know that my own charts shows at what points, if shields always get a chance to regenerate on their own, when the regenerative shield will have overall have generated more shield points then covariants."
The formula to work out DPS tankable for two resistance types is 2*A/((1-0.B)+(1-0.C))= xxx dps. Copy and paste the Italic bit into notepad. Replace A with Hitpoint regen, B with resistance, C with resistance. Copy and paste Italic line into windows calculator and press equal’s. If you want to work one one resitance type the same number as B and C. At least thats how I do it.

For example say I have 50% Plasma, 55% kintinc resistance and 66.6HP/s regen. This means 2*A/((1-0.B)+(1-0.C))= becomes 2*66.6/((1-0.55)+(1-0.50))=140.2
So you just copy and past 2*66.6/((1-0.55)+(1-0.50))= into windows Calculator. Then you have DPS tanked. If its 75% damage reduction just type 75 as B and C.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 64
01-06-2011, 12:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Armsman View Post
Is there a reason Resilient shields weren't included? I ask becauuse I do find the 5% absorption 5% bleedthough setup works very well on top of stacked resistences, but don't have the time to do a broad statistical analysis; so is there some drawback to Resilient shield in general for some reason I'n not aware of?
Yes, there is a reason. For the stuff I tested, they would always be worse overall then Covariants or Regenerative Shields (and Regular shields, too), basically. That doesn't mean they are worse in practice. I ignore the consequences of bleedthrough and hull damage in my math, so the benefits of the Resilient shields don't show. I could probably check the stats for a Resilient Shield Array with Reg or Cap mods and add them to the charts, but it would be kinda misleading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrix
1. The console's modifier is applied to the shield regen factoring in power level, not to the base shield regen.

2. This console, like the shield capacity one, does not stack.
Thanks for the research. I didn't expect that result.

Quote:
Now, if you'll excuse me, I need to go "thank" a borg sphere for his help in testing how that console actually works.


I think the problem with diminishing returns and all that is that the terminology might not be used consistently in general (and in this case, it's not necessarily a Cryptic problem). Astrix describes diminishgin returns basically as something where it is a difference whether you have 2 +x bonuses or a single +2x bonus. That is not the case for hull resistance, and hence he is correct in saying it are not diminishing returns according to his definition. You can use 2 armor consoles with a +25 resist mod, or 1 armor console with a +50 mod, the end result is the same.
(Just a reminder, the hull resist formla is 1 - (100/(100 + Resist value))
If you look at what these hull resisstances effectively do, it is giving you "extra hit points". If you got +25 hull resists, it is as if you had 25 % more hit points. But the display in the game represents this +25 % hit points as damage reduction, and then it is no longer 25 % hit points, but 20 % damage reduction.

If anyone can follow me... This calculationg back & forth between "virtual bonus to hit points" and "damage reduction as a percentage" can make one dizzy.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 65
01-06-2011, 02:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
If anyone can follow me... This calculationg back & forth between "virtual bonus to hit points" and "damage reduction as a percentage" can make one dizzy.
Yup, and trying to get people to see that any of those stats can be shown as having DR and as being linear, just a matter of perspective, well, suffice it to say, best to only rarely get into it, as people refuse to think about what the numbers mean, let alone the implications of a given stat, they'd rather just fall back on "but the UI shows"...with one humorous exception. They'll claim turn rate consoles have DR, when the UI shows the linear side of it. Funny the lingering impact a single thread from around launch, a thread trying to make a case for upping cruiser turn rates by showing that turn rate consoles are not a viable solution, can have.

But, well, just don't touch unless you want to derail threads
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 66
01-06-2011, 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post

The regeneration value is modified by your shield power. At 50 shield power, you have the number listed in a shield's description. For every point above 50, you shield regeneration value increases by 4 %, and for every below, it reduces by 4 %.
Formula: (1 + (Power Level - 50) / 25) x Base Regeneration at 50. Note that this formula doesn't really apply below 25 power - you would normally get a negative regeneration then, but this is not applied to your ship. Otherwise, you would lose shields at Full Impulse. Only if you are using an ability that brings your shield power to 0 do you lose shield capacity.
Thank you very much for writing this guide it, it assured me that my own math was correct.

I have one question though...for the formula for calculating the regen of a shield, why do you add the 1 before multiplying by the base regeneration at 50?

Say you were using 100 power rating with a base of 250
With my math, I get 500 ((100-50)/25)x250
With yours, I get 750 (1+(100-50)/25)x250

What does the "1" represent? I can see it being used if the power level is below 50, otherwise I can't see its purpose.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 67
01-06-2011, 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Acceleron
Thank you very much for writing this guide it, it assured me that my own math was correct.

I have one question though...for the formula for calculating the regen of a shield, why do you add the 1 before multiplying by the base regeneration at 50?

Say you were using 100 power rating with a base of 250
With my math, I get 500 ((100-50)/25)x250
With yours, I get 750 (1+(100-50)/25)x250

What does the "1" represent? I can see it being used if the power level is below 50, otherwise I can't see its purpose.
At 50, you get base regen, your 250. At 75, you should be at 500. At 100, 750.

Although, unless I'm mistaken, the both formulas are wrong and should be (100-25)/25 * regen_rate. Shields regen at any point above 25, no?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 68
01-06-2011, 11:21 AM
Thanks man, I definitely derped when I should have herped....stupid math
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 69
01-06-2011, 12:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axterix
At 50, you get base regen, your 250. At 75, you should be at 500. At 100, 750.

Although, unless I'm mistaken, the both formulas are wrong and should be (100-25)/25 * regen_rate. Shields regen at any point above 25, no?
They do, and they do so with my formula. That's one of the things the 1+ does, basically.

It's a 25 point difference between 50 and 25, if every point below 50 reduces generation by 4 %, it should be reduced by 100 %, e.g. the total multiplier should be 0.
At 75 power, there is also a 25 point difference to 50, but a positive, one, and that should amount to +100 %.

(1 + (Power Level - 50) / 25) x Base Regeneration at 50
If you insert 50, you get 1 x Base Regeneration. That's what we would expect.
If you insert 25, you get 0 x Base Regeneration (as 25-50 is -25, divided by 25 is -1, 1 + (-1) is 0).
If you insert 75, you get 2 x Base Regeneration (as 75-50 is 25, divided by 25 is +1, 1 + 1 = 2).

Now, I won't discount the possibility that the information I found on the scaling of regeneration with power levels is off. Source for the 4 % difference would be this website: http://theenginescannaetakeit.wordpr...evels/#shields

But I'd say my math based on that is fine.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 70
01-06-2011, 12:58 PM
Yeah, but mine is less steps
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