Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 A few quick questions...
01-04-2011, 04:46 PM
Hi all, I'm sure these answers are scattered about somewhere but I've been having a little trouble pinning them down any help would be appreciated.

1.) Do hull resistances mitigate damage while shields are still up or only once damage is being done to hull?
2.) Do shields recharge even if they have taken damage during their 6 second cycle?
3.) If firing multiple phasers causes an energy drop, is the full loss really applied to every volley? I read somewhere that firing 3 phasers at 100 power means all three will fire at (100-10-10)=80 as opposed to one at 100, one at 90, and one at 80 which would seem intuitively correct.
4.) I've read about a number of stats or bonuses or effects being capped at a certain value even if stacking is allowed and that some things do not stack while others do. Is there a place to easily see what those values are and what does and does not stack?

Thanks!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
01-05-2011, 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PicardTheIIIrd
Hi all, I'm sure these answers are scattered about somewhere but I've been having a little trouble pinning them down any help would be appreciated.

1.) Do hull resistances mitigate damage while shields are still up or only once damage is being done to hull?
2.) Do shields recharge even if they have taken damage during their 6 second cycle?
3.) If firing multiple phasers causes an energy drop, is the full loss really applied to every volley? I read somewhere that firing 3 phasers at 100 power means all three will fire at (100-10-10)=80 as opposed to one at 100, one at 90, and one at 80 which would seem intuitively correct.
4.) I've read about a number of stats or bonuses or effects being capped at a certain value even if stacking is allowed and that some things do not stack while others do. Is there a place to easily see what those values are and what does and does not stack?

Thanks!
1) Shield aren't total protection. They have are certain amount of bleed through damage (10% or % depending on type. And some weapons and abilities bypass shields altogether. Hull damage resistance will mitigate any damage the hull takes being direct hull damage when the shield is down or via bleed through damage.

2) Shields have a base regeneration rate tic of 6 seconds. (And yes they will regenerate as long as Shield Subsystem Power is 25+. 50 is base regeneration rate). The amount of regen is dependienton the Shield Subsystem Power setting. (See my Beginner's Guide to Ships Power for more details. Link is in my sig below). Some abilities increase the regen tic which are Shield Heals Over Time. (Transfer Shield Strength or Rotate Shield Frequencies). Other abilities give an substantial instant heal to all shield facings (Shield Heal) (Science Team and Emergency Power to Shields are examples) (Again see my Ship Power guide for more info on these)

3) You have the gist of it, but it's slight more complicated. The weapon fires are slightly staggered. So it may be 100,100,90. The weapon drain only kicks in aftera free 10 power drain. (i.e. 2 beam weapons would only drain to 90 instead of 80).

4) The only cap that you can easily reach of the Shield Damage Resistance Cap of 75%. All Shield Damage Resistance buffs are additive. Other modifiers are multiplicative. Under the general formula of
base * ( 1 + <buff totals>/100) or base / ( 1 + <buff totals>/100) depending if the base value is being increase or decreases (i.e. weapon damage or hull damage resistance).

As you can see from the formulas you get diminishing returns when stacking the buffs total. And the amount of buffs players can stack aren't enough to get you to the other caps. So it's nothing you really need to worry about. The only thing in the game that doesn't stack is the Mk XI Field Generator Engineering Console because it gives +35% Shield Capacity (which is a lot). If those console stacked, they would have to drastically reduce the magnitude of the console. Most player don't want that. (Me included).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
01-05-2011, 12:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
1) Shield aren't total protection. They have are certain amount of bleed through damage (10% or % depending on type. And some weapons and abilities bypass shields altogether. Hull damage resistance will mitigate any damage the hull takes being direct hull damage when the shield is down or via bleed through damage.
In case this isn't still clear - damage to shields is not affected by hull resistance. But shields let damage through to the hull (10 % normally, 5 % for Resilient Shields), and that damage is affected by hull resistance.

Quote:
2) Shields have a base regeneration rate tic of 6 seconds. (And yes they will regenerate as long as Shield Subsystem Power is 25+. 50 is base regeneration rate). The amount of regen is dependienton the Shield Subsystem Power setting. (See my Beginner's Guide to Ships Power for more details. Link is in my sig below). Some abilities increase the regen tic which are Shield Heals Over Time. (Transfer Shield Strength or Rotate Shield Frequencies). Other abilities give an substantial instant heal to all shield facings (Shield Heal) (Science Team and Emergency Power to Shields are examples) (Again see my Ship Power guide for more info on these)
This is obviously all for space (which I am assuming you were indeed talking about). In ground combat, there is indeed a requirement to not take damage to get your shields automatically regenerated. But space, it's every 6 seconds no matter if you're under fir eor not.

Quote:
As you can see from the formulas you get diminishing returns when stacking the buffs total. And the amount of buffs players can stack aren't enough to get you to the other caps. So it's nothing you really need to worry about. The only thing in the game that doesn't stack is the Mk XI Field Generator Engineering Console because it gives +35% Shield Capacity (which is a lot). If those console stacked, they would have to drastically reduce the magnitude of the console. Most player don't want that. (Me included).
I think it was shown it's possible to get at least _very_ close to the cap, but it takes a lot of work and possibly the assistance of a 2nd player. Or the Intrepid Retrofits Ablative Armor Generator.

It helps to think of hull resistance modifiers as "bonus to your hit points" instead of as damage reduction (though the hull resistance leads to damage reduction). If you get +100 hull resists, it is as if you had twice as many hit points. While, if you had 100 % damage reduction, it's as if you had infinite hit points, since you never lose any.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
01-05-2011, 01:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
4) The only cap that you can easily reach of the Shield Damage Resistance Cap of 75%. All Shield Damage Resistance buffs are additive.
While this might be a terminology issue, shield damage reduction buffs are multiplicative, not additive. If you have two 25% buffs, for example, you'll see the following results on a base hit of 100%:
0 buffs: 100
1 buff: 75
2 buffs: 56.25

Your total shield reduction is equal to 1 - ( (1-reduction0) * (1-reduction1)* ... * (1-reductionX)) Up to a cap of 75%, of course.

Quote:
Other modifiers are multiplicative. Under the general formula of
base * ( 1 + <buff totals>/100) or base / ( 1 + <buff totals>/100) depending if the base value is being increase or decreases (i.e. weapon damage or hull damage resistance).
Others are additive, actually. Hence your use of the term <buff totals> You add them all up, then use the total.

Also, sent you a PM with some info for your power levels thread, info on the destroyer + the results of my testing of shield power and how much shield damage reduction it gives.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
01-05-2011, 05:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axterix
While this might be a terminology issue, shield damage reduction buffs are multiplicative, not additive. If you have two 25% buffs, for example, you'll see the following results on a base hit of 100%:
0 buffs: 100
1 buff: 75
2 buffs: 56.25

Your total shield reduction is equal to 1 - ( (1-reduction0) * (1-reduction1)* ... * (1-reductionX)) Up to a cap of 75%, of course.
Where do you take this information? Did you manage to test it?

The last information I have on this is that there are no diminishing returns and shield damage reduction just add up to a maximum of 75 %. It certainly used to be possible to reach 100 % before they instituted the cap, and they wanted to add the diminishing returns, but never stated that they had (and in fact explicitely stated that they added the cap and haven't gotten the diminishing returns yet.)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
01-05-2011, 11:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post
Where do you take this information? Did you manage to test it?
Yeah, I tested it around launch. And I verified that it is still the same last night.

Easy enough to test, really, just look at the combat log for hits on your shields at various power settings/buff combos. Additive won't work. Multiplicative does.

I was quite surprised during that testing to see my carrier take hits like 1003 (1000), when running at 50 shield power. But that did help me figure out how much SDR shield power actually gives. Guess my 50 shield power is actually just below 50

Quote:
The last information I have on this is that there are no diminishing returns and shield damage reduction just add up to a maximum of 75 %. It certainly used to be possible to reach 100 % before they instituted the cap, and they wanted to add the diminishing returns, but never stated that they had (and in fact explicitely stated that they added the cap and haven't gotten the diminishing returns yet.)
*shrug* Devs say a lot of things. And players make a lot of assumptions. No doubt the devs meant changing SDR over to the same system as resists, something that hasn't been done.

Additive, by the way, would actually be increasing returns, as far as what really matters, that being shield uptime. Going from 0% to 1% increases shield uptime by about 1%. Going from 98% to 99% doubles it. Each point is worth more to the player than the last. That's increasing returns. The fact that each point is linear in that it stops 1 damage out of 100 is a pretty meaningless number. Nobody really cares about going from 100 damage to 99. They do like going from 2 to 1 (or, in case of a bigger hit, 100 to 50).

What I can tell you is that I did my original testing early in release. I tested it as a result of a comment by another player of how shield damage reduction worked. My findings verified what he said. The powers I used for my testing were ST I and ST II, with my escort, which had those powers providing over 50% shield damage reduction each. Obviously before ST lost its SDR and, for that matter, before science consoles got their values halved, and before shield power gave SDR. I still took shield damage with them both stacked.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
01-05-2011, 05:49 PM
I'm not sure how you testing went. But I just tested shield damage with my Star Cruiser. With my shield power at 58 for some reason was only giving me 6% shield damage resistance instead of
~11%. (But that's a separate issue). When I toss in Rotate Shield Frequencies which for my character added +46% for the testing conditions. The damage my shields is reduced by an an amount which averages around 46% just as I would expect .9419 damage ration to .4885 damage ratio .9419 - .4885 = .4519 ~ 46%. That is certain additives. And I'll continue to explore my Shield Power resistance isn't as published by the devs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
01-05-2011, 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzun View Post
I'm not sure how you testing went. But I just tested shield damage with my Star Cruiser. With my shield power at 58 for some reason was only giving me 6% shield damage resistance instead of
~11%. (But that's a separate issue).
I'd expect 1.8% with 8 power, actually. But yeah, some weirdness there for sure. Who knows, maybe cruisers get a 5% bonus? Not sure. I know it worked out for me with both my destroyer and carrier though. Might have to experiment a bit Fed side later.

Quote:
When I toss in Rotate Shield Frequencies which for my character added +46% for the testing conditions. The damage my shields is reduced by an an amount which averages around 46% just as I would expect .9419 damage ration to .4885 damage ratio .9419 - .4885 = .4519 ~ 46%. That is certain additives. And I'll continue to explore my Shield Power resistance isn't as published by the devs.
The problem there is that you're dealing with what should be such a small shield power damage reduction. If the actual power reduction is 1.8% and you tack the 46% on to that, you wind up around 47%, which, allowing for the usual rounding issues, is also ~46%.

Try running it with multiple big shield buffs. Say as close to 50 shield power as you can get, which should be 0%. Then toss in RSF and EP2S II. If it were additive, this would cap you, since 46+32 = 78%. But I don't think you'll see hits like 250 (1000) on your shields. It should be closer to a 63% damage reduction. Though probably a bit off from that too, allowing for whatever weirdness is causing your cruiser shield numbers to not match my expected ones, hehe.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
01-05-2011, 07:52 PM
Took my star cruise liner out for a quick run.

Cruiser - 62 shield power. Expected shield damage reduction from this is: (62-50)/500 = 2.4%.

A couple of sample hits:
394 (403 ) shield damage was dealt to your Regenerative Shield Array - Rear.
332 (340 ) shield damage was dealt to your Regenerative Shield Array - Rear.

394/403= 97.7
332/340 = 97.6

Both very close to 2.4% reduction. So really not sure what happened with your 6%.

Couple of further tests:

Now with 87 shield power, using EPtS I: 24% SDR

Expected numbers: (87 - 50)/500 = 7.4%
100% * 92.6% * 76% = 70.38%

288 (410) shield damage was dealt to your Regenerative Shield Array - Left.
284 (405) shield damage was dealt to your Regenerative Shield Array - Left.

288/410 = 70.2%
284/405 = 70.1%

Right about where I'd expect.

And then tossing in RSF, which for me is 50% SDR.
70.38% * 0.5% = 35.19%.

150 (415) shield damage was dealt to your Regenerative Shield Array - Rear.
141 (391) shield damage was dealt to your Regenerative Shield Array - Rear.

150/415 = 36.1%
141/391 = 36.06%

Close enough given rounding.

If it were additive, the damage reduction on that last test would have been 50% + 24% + 7.4% = 81.4% Which should have capped at 75%.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
01-05-2011, 08:01 PM
Ok I'll concede that shield DR is multiplicative in some manner. But the way things combine are strange. It doesn't follow you example formula. I'm seeing with net 85 Shield Power, RSF II at +49% DR and EPtS II with +32% DR. I'm seeing 66.6% damage reduction.

but using your (SP - 50) / 500 formula for Shield Power DR it does come close at .6775

In my previous test, the math lied to me. Just worked out to my preconceived notion.
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