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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
01-06-2011, 11:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roach View Post
Flight suits.
That assists to a certain extent with waste issues, but doesn't really apply to sleep and food. There's also the issue of being in that cramped cockpit for overly extended periods of time.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 42
01-06-2011, 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
First off, we don't know that the fighters seen in those scenes are all of them. I'm fairly certain they aren't. Especially in the pic that was linked, which only shows THREE fighters.
Very well, here is a link to the relevant part of the actual episode.
To see what I mentioned, please look at counter 1:10 minutes, where you can see the fleet moving off, of which the pic I linked shows a part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7Bj5LqsUfU

I predict that you will say that there are not enough fighters in that sequence to hint at them not being aboard some kind of carrier craft however in that scene we also only see a handful of the 600 capital ships so this counterargument does not really apply.

In the second part, beginning with counter 7:00, you can see the deployed fighters before the detection of the enemy fleet.

There is also another aspect to consider: smaller ships can travel inside the warp field of a larger ship, so the fighters could simply come along with larger ships at higher speeds that they would themselves be incapable of without the need to carry them on a ship.

There was more then one instance of this shown throughout the shows, beginning with the TNG pilot where the Saucer remained inside the Drive-Section's warpfield, the NX-01 was carried inside the NX-02's warpfield for several minutes, now think ahead 220 years and consider the size difference between a Galaxy with its hughe engines and some 48 fighters that could easily 'hike a ride' inside the ship's field.
The TNGTM also supports this and states both that the Saucer can travel inside the Warpfield and that Photon Torpedoes also travel inside the ship's Warpfield until the distance between the ship and the torpedo becomes to great and the warp-sustainer engine of the torpedo needs to kick in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
Also, even if the Fighters themselves are capable of traveling at Warp 6+ (the average cruise speed of a federation vessel, though presumably a fleet on its way to battle would be traveling faster than that), how long a trip was it from that starbase to the field of battle? How are the pilots of 1-2 man fighters supposed to take care of things like sleep, using the restroom, eating meals, etc.?
When Quark finds out from Damar that the minefield would be destroyed in less than a week, he uses Morn to get a message to the Federation which them moves out as quickly as possible.
Since it would still take Morn time to get that message physically to Starfleet it was not really a long peroid of time.
As for the human(oid) need for rest/restroom etc: it's the same as on a Runabout which is suposed to operate for two weeks at a time.
And we've seen them out with only one pilot for extended periods so it must be possible.
Another example would be the, compared to the 32 meter Peregrine rather small, SU-34 which HAS a toilet and even a kitchen and also space between the seats to lie down.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Su-34
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 43
01-06-2011, 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Very well, here is a link to the relevant part of the actual episode.
To see what I mentioned, please look at counter 1:10 minutes, where you can see the fleet moving off, of which the pic I linked shows a part.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-7Bj5LqsUfU

I predict that you will say that there are not enough fighters in that sequence to hint at them not being aboard some kind of carrier craft however in that scene we also only see a handful of the 600 capital ships so this counterargument does not really apply.

In the second part, beginning with counter 7:00, you can see the deployed fighters before the detection of the enemy fleet.

There is also another aspect to consider: smaller ships can travel inside the warp field of a larger ship, so the fighters could simply come along with larger ships at higher speeds that they would themselves be incapable of without the need to carry them on a ship.

There was more then one instance of this shown throughout the shows, beginning with the TNG pilot where the Saucer remained inside the Drive-Section's warpfield, the NX-01 was carried inside the NX-02's warpfield for several minutes, now think ahead 220 years and consider the size difference between a Galaxy with its hughe engines and some 48 fighters that could easily 'hike a ride' inside the ship's field.
The TNGTM also supports this and states both that the Saucer can travel inside the Warpfield and that Photon Torpedoes also travel inside the ship's Warpfield until the distance between the ship and the torpedo becomes to great and the warp-sustainer engine of the torpedo needs to kick in.
It is true they could travel within the warp fields of other ships. However, that is not exactly the safest way to travel, and is not recommended for prolonged flights. It would be more reasonable to land the fighters in the shuttlebays of the Galaxy class starships than to fly them within another ship's warp field.

I would note that the clip still doesn't show the Fighters traveling at warp. The first scene is before leaving Starbase. The second scene is after coming out of warp and being on approach to the enemy fleet. The Fighters may have been on their way from the Starbase to their respective "Carriers" (whether actual -carriers- or simply the shuttlebays of larger ships) and had just been deployed and were moving into their respective formations and positions when shown in the second scene. Since we only see those two scenes, there's no way to know for sure.

Something else I would note is the Multi-Vector Assault Mode tested with the Prometheus-class starship. While the Prometheus is not itself a -carrier,- it is still a carrier-like concept of using a "swarm" of smaller, more maneuverable ships rather than a single large ship. The concept is most certainly not unknown to the Federation and clearly considered effective. This was in the 2370s, and again, STO is in the 2400s. It is very -very- reasonable for Carriers to have become an actual ship design in that 40s years, even if they weren't one -in- the 2370s.

I'd also point out again that the only thing that -really- matters as far as carriers go is the fact that carriers -are- canon. Even if the Federation themselves didn't -have- Carriers (which is an "unknown" with some indications that they may have had them), the existence of carriers in the setting of Star Trek -is- absolutely canon. The Reman Warbird Scimitar, the Kazon ships, etc. Fighters are also completely canon, as shown with the Federation, the Kazon, the Vulcans, the Bajorans, etc. Even if you believe the Federation has never had carriers, well, they don't have carriers in STO either.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 44
01-06-2011, 12:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
*snip*
I hear a lot of saying - no, they arent'treally anything like our fighters and carriers, but they still make sense? I just disagree. I am not seeing it.

Not for Startrek. That other franchises like Star Wars, Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica also make similar errors is not my problem - or maybe they didn't - in the Star Wars movies, there are at least 3 examples of small fighters taking out larger vessels, so maybe Fighters do indeed serve a purpose their? And in Babylon 5, ships didn't generally have shiields, I think. In BSG, the vipers at least made sense for planetary attacks. In Startrek, we have seen the Enterprise use Phasers for precise drilling... THe Kazon and Trabe might have been to primitive for more precise weaponry, but Starfleet isn't.

Startrek has Fighters, but they are not used in the way we use carriers and their planes. Their fighters seem to share little similarities to planes in combat roles, and overall I just don't see it fitting.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Varrangian View Post
We've got carriers, the devs have invested time (which to them is money) into them. They are not going away canon or not.

Now could we possibly have more variation on the theme or even more complex and intricate ship design other than the Rochambeau of Cruiser, Escort, Science and Carrier? Yes, but you're still going to see these designs in there some where. The devs have invested too much into this to see it change or any of them simply removed.
I think regarding Carriers, especially after reading some ideas of others, I would like to see them carrying something else then carriers in battle. Special Weapons. This is kinda the stuff I was hoping for - people thinking outside the box and thinking what else is possible. (Aside from the fact that I really hate Carriers in Startrek and like to fantasize about them not being there. :p).

Breaking up the current 3-4 general ship types we had seems difficult. Ships are strongly defined by their bridge officer slots. You could create something like a nimble ship with lots of engineering slot, but then, we already have the Bird of Prey.

I think there is a lot of room for hybrids in that regard (like the Excelsior and more?).

What kind of role on the battlefield could ships fulfill? Particularly if we want all ships to be "equally" useful. One could have stuff like frigates or light cruisers, but if they have the same type of firepower, shields, hull or maneuveraility as existing ships, they don't really form something new.

One way to "break out" of the mold might be to reduce the number of Bridge Officer slots and instead give more unique special abilities.

For example, the mobile forward operating base. It is kinda like a Carrier, except there is nothing about fighters. It might be a flying repair dock with capabilities to help colonization, research and maybe installing transwarp gates (including ones that could be tactically employed within a battle, allowing ships to quickly travel to the base ship.) That could be what the Jupiter Class is all about (as much as I dislike its current looks, I do also believe it is salvageable, and a Jupiter-like starship would look more compelling to me then a Galaxy Dreadnought).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 45
01-06-2011, 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
It is true they could travel within the warp fields of other ships. However, that is not exactly the safest way to travel, and is not recommended for prolonged flights. It would be more reasonable to land the fighters in the shuttlebays of the Galaxy class starships than to fly them within another ship's warp field.
Not correct I'm afraid.
I spefically checked for risks regarding this matter in the TNGTM and the only risk comes from the simple reason that at warp, the saucer is ahead of the stardrive but has not warpdrive itself.
The same applies to the aforementioned extending of the Warpfield by to NX-02 to the NX-01, which also had no warpdirve itself since the core underwent a cold-start while the two ships traveled inside the NX-02's field, which was also primiarily to unsafe because it had to be extended to encompass both ships, which would not be the case with the method I propose.
Also the problems from the difference in the means of propulsion would not apply since the fighters are known to be warp-capable.
The fighters the Maquis used in "The Maquis Pt2" were unquestionably Warp-Capable and they use the identical model for both ships.

http://images.wikia.com/memoryalpha/...s_fighters.jpg

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...nube_class.jpg

So unless you want to say the Federation deliberately removed this ability...

The Galaxy can use it's shuttlebays for a great many different functions, including as emergency hospitals which would be more likely to be needed to evacuate and treat personnell from badly damaged ships, which tend to come up in a major battle.
This could not be done when the bays were rigged for fighters.
Additionally as I mentioned above those fighters are over 30 meters long and wide (they have a cockpit for two people side-by-side.

http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_...Per_slide1.jpg

Which means they would only fit into the large hangar bays on the Galaxy saucer section.
No other ship would be likely to have the hangar capacity to carry them.
Even in case of the Akira it is questionable how a 30 meter fighter would be supposed to fit into a 25 meter shuttlebay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
I would note that the clip still doesn't show the Fighters traveling at warp. The first scene is before leaving Starbase. The second scene is after coming out of warp and being on approach to the enemy fleet. The Fighters may have been on their way from the Starbase to their respective "Carriers" (whether actual -carriers- or simply the shuttlebays of larger ships) and had just been deployed and were moving into their respective formations and positions when shown in the second scene. Since we only see those two scenes, there's no way to know for sure.
Again, as I mentioned above they were out before they even knew there was an enemy fleet out there.
Why?
Aestetics?
Boredom?

And now you indicate they would have been launched from regular ships; from shuttlebays.
Aside from the fact that most Federation ships couldn't hold such a large fighter aside from the Galaxy and the Nebula you now say those would have carried the fighters, not a dedicated carrier.
If that is true, there would still not be a carrier, there would only be larger Federation ships serving as makeshift carriers, not as proper carriers even remotely like the ones the Klingons have in STO.
It would even indicate the exact opposite of it.
If the Federation can simple convert the shuttlebays of a few ships to make room so they can operate fighters for a limited period of time without any of the problems associated with a carrier like the limited defensive capabilites compared to its size...what purpose would a dedicated carrier serve?
If this is any indication it would mean Starfleet came to the conclusion that carriers are not really that useful.
Particularly in peace time, what would you do with them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
Something else I would note is the Multi-Vector Assault Mode tested with the Prometheus-class starship. While the Prometheus is not itself a -carrier,- it is still a carrier-like concept of using a "swarm" of smaller, more maneuverable ships rather than a single large ship. The concept is most certainly not unknown to the Federation and clearly considered effective. This was in the 2370s, and again, STO is in the 2400s. It is very -very- reasonable for Carriers to have become an actual ship design in that 40s years, even if they weren't one -in- the 2370s.
Again quite obviously Starfleet rather experimiented with ships like the Prometheus than developing a carrier.
Appearently they saw a concept (which is basically the inverse of a Power Rangers Robot which ususually starts out as seperate parts that connect to become more powerful) like this as more promising otherwise they would have never built even a prototype.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
I'd also point out again that the only thing that -really- matters as far as carriers go is the fact that carriers -are- canon. Even if the Federation themselves didn't -have- Carriers (which is an "unknown" with some indications that they may have had them), the existence of carriers in the setting of Star Trek -is- absolutely canon. The Reman Warbird Scimitar, the Kazon ships, etc. Fighters are also completely canon, as shown with the Federation, the Kazon, the Vulcans, the Bajorans, etc. Even if you believe the Federation has never had carriers, well, they don't have carriers in STO either.
In the case of the Kazon, because something is called a "carrier" does not indicate it's even remotely like the carrier you're thinking of.
Carrier means it carries...something.
In case of the Kazon and their somewhat strange fleet structure where these large ships are basically large mobile centers it probably means it carries a lot of personnell.
Also it would be the most ineffective carrier I ever saw on television.
In the pilot it was escorted by two (!!!) fighters.
In basics 8 of them launched so few fighters it's not really any better.
If that is the concept of a carrier you're referring to it's no wonder the Federation never developed one.

The fighters the Scimitar carried were called "flyers", they were extremely small (about the size of a shuttlepod), they were equipped with a tiny gun and they were appearently intended to be used in an evironment with gravity.
Otherwise they would nove relied so much on an antigrav-system for propulsion.
They were also not used by the Scimitar in the fight against the Enterprise even after the cloak on the ship was disabled and even Shinzon began to loose his cool.
So they were appearently not space-fighters but aerospace fighters intended to operate against planetary targets not ships.
This is further supported by the "Tales of the Dominion War" book which explains how Shinzon got his hands on the Thalaron device.
The Scorpions are used as planetary attack fighters there as well.
Of course since this is soft-canon I understand perfectly that you may wish to ignore this piece of information.

Your view that whoever has fighters must have a carrier ignores the fact that for example on Earth very many nations have fighters but only very few have carriers (GB, US, France) so why would the Federation have to base its fighter operations on the methods of those nations that have fighters?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 46
01-06-2011, 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
Further research on the Maquis fighters yeilds the information that these ships came in varying sizes, ranging from the 1-2 crew cockpit style to the size of the Val Jean (Chakotay's ship). The key difference I can find is internal with the 1-2 crew cockpit style having a larger cargo area, likely for the photon/quantum torpedos that it was armed with.
No. There are no various sizes, they're two completely different ships.

The "Maquis Fighter" aka "Academy Trainer" aka "Federation Attack Fighter" is a Peregrine-type Courier Shuttle, the "Maquis Raider" is a Ju'day-class Freighter. Sadly, many people have mixed them up due to their somewhat similar general shape and affiliation, so even the Memory Alpha articles about them are a bit untidy and lack a clear connection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
The Fighters would, reasonably, have low level Warp engines to facilitate escape in certain situations as well as preventing them from being quite as likely to end up completely stranded with only impulse engines to help them return to a Federation colony or starbase.
Actually, it would be reasonable for courier ships to have a rather fast warp drive so they can ... you know, do courier runs. This is all very relative, of course, for it's a hard canon fact that the Peregrine was somewhat slower than a Danube-class Runabout, which still has a maximum speed of warp 5.

We don't know at which speed the fleet travelled, but I guess the piggyback warp bubble solution is also practical.

In any case all this does not really matter anything, for we know for a fact that the Peregrine was not conceived as a fighter but as a civilian ship - so why would the Federation build a dedicated carrier when it obviously did not plan on dedicated fighers? This simply does not add up. The most you could argue with is that some of the Peregrines could have been carried in the existing shuttlebays of the capital ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
However, here's another reason for the existance of Fighters. Atmospheric combat.
Why exactly would the Federation even do such a thing? As we know from the shows, phasers are accurate enough to chirurgically hit any target on the surface without the need to enter a planet's atmosphere. Wide scale destruction can be achieved by photon torpedoes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
They don't send shuttlecraft out into combat for extra firepower because -shuttlecrafts- are not designed for it.
Actually, we've seen Runabouts being used for combat in DS9, in lieu of a larger ship. And they outperformed the Peregrines they were attacking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
The point was that the Federation was getting more and more capable of fitting larger amounts of firepower into smaller, more compact designs, which is -exemplified- by the Defiant, the Runabouts, and the Delta Flyer.
I think you're misinterpreting starship evolution here. The Federation has always been capable of fitting firepower into compact designs - see the ENT-era Vulcan fighters you linked. The important thing to consider is that the Federation chose to not do so because of several key reasons:
  • fighters are even more limited in their scope than the Defiant
  • fighters were regarded as "too aggressive" (remember the Defiant "warship" debate?)
  • fighters are way too vulnerable and would put Starfleet pilots in unnecessary risk
  • fighters are simply not efficient in comparison to larger ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
One of the specific advantages seen with Fighters is manueverability, largely due to significantly lower mass.
Not really. Every time fighters showed up on screen we've seen them die in droves, one-shotted by the capital ships. The one and only advantage Starfleet had with the Peregrines is quite simply that they had them and their pilots ready (due to the Peregrine being used as an Academy Trainer) and they needed every single ship for Operation Return. It was an all-or-nothing assault whose outcome would determine the fate of the Quadrant and the Federation as a whole, for if those Dominion reinforcements would have come through, the UFP may as well have surrendered instantly.

And I fail to see this supposedly superior maneuverability in civilian couriers that let themselves get disabled even by Runabouts(!).

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
Presumably, their individual phasers are not as powerful as that of say a Galaxy class as they do not have the power generation capabilities (though they can devote more of the power they do generate to weapons in general), but the torpedos would not suffer much at all.
Actually, I do believe that the torpedoes would be significantly smaller - and less effective - in the same way as comparing a Hellfire missile with an MGM-140 missile.

In any case we have seen what the Peregrines can do on-screen, and frankly, I was not impressed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
Actually, I can say with 99.9% certainty that a Vulcan would come to the same conclusion I've come to. http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Vulcan_fighter
I think he was referring to the reformed Vulcans, not the militarized despotists from the ENT era.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
Star Trek Combat has featured fighters, both involving the Maquis and the Dominion War, as well as Vulcan vs the Andorians, the Kazon, and several other instances.
As for the Maquis and the Dominion War, those were still not fighters but repurposed shuttlecraft. The Vulcans have since reformed. The Kazon are not part of the Federation and do not really seem to /care much for the loss of life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
If STO had no carriers, it would still feel like Star Trek.
I maintain that carriers have no place in the setting. This is not Star Wars. Trek has always been about "naval" style combat, not waves of squishy suicide bombers duking it out. DS9 felt weird enough with the whole "let's copy the Shadow War" going on. It moved away noticeably from the Starfleet we knew from TNG and TOS.

Some like it and deem it "more realistic". I say we don't need to copy the real world this extensively, other franchises do it enough. If you remove the things that set Trek apart from other settings, you're diminishing its uniqueness.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
However, adding a few ships that are also Carriers does very much fit the setting and canon of Star Trek, especially since STO takes place in 2409 and there was at least -one- known Carrier starship in the form of the Scimitar as of 2379.
Well, I'd argue that the Romulans have less concern for their Reman troops than Starfleet has for its own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
How are the pilots of 1-2 man fighters supposed to take care of things like sleep, using the restroom, eating meals, etc.?
The same way the civilian pilots that were using these very same shuttles did before. And the Maquis.

In fact, were not the Delta Flyer and the Danubes used for equally long voyages without any problems as well? You're still seeing too much "fighter" where in actuality the Peregrine is a shuttlecraft that might even feature its own replicator.

"They used to shoehorn half a dozen cadets into one of these things for weeks at a time."
- Tom Paris, about the type-IX shuttlecraft

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessKatrina View Post
Something else I would note is the Multi-Vector Assault Mode tested with the Prometheus-class starship.
Aside from the Prometheus' ridiculous concept (which sadly still is canon) you cannot really compare the three frigate-sized components of the Prometheus to some tiny shuttle that goes poof as soon as someone so much as locks onto it with a phaser bank.

... actually, didn't the devs put out an in-universe reason for why MVAM isn't available for the Prometheus in STO? Something about Starfleet intentionally removing it?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 47
01-06-2011, 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MustrumRidcully View Post

I think regarding Carriers, especially after reading some ideas of others, I would like to see them carrying something else then carriers in battle. Special Weapons. This is kinda the stuff I was hoping for - people thinking outside the box and thinking what else is possible. (Aside from the fact that I really hate Carriers in Startrek and like to fantasize about them not being there. :p).
Oh boy, a carrier that carries carriers...that sounds really reeaallly big.

But I guess you meant fighters.

Anyway outside the box, at least a bit:
There is currently no artillery.
They would be the equivalent of "Archers" (no "Enterprise"-pun intended).
Low on maneuverability with limited self defense at close range.
The reasoning behind why the current Klingon carriers would have such ability would be rather simple:
Planetary assault.
Assuming they actually carry an entire invasion force, like a giant Tarawa filled with angry Klingons

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarawa_...s_assault_ship

why not combine it with some "shore artillery"? The ship could knock out planetary shields from orbit and also destroy anti-air/anti-space batteries that might be used to take down the planetary assault shuttles you want to send down to "secure" a particular colony.
Of course those guns could be used in space combat as well, but only beyond a certain minimum range (say only at ranges 5-15 km)
Hence artillery capability for the Vo'Quv.
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# 48
01-06-2011, 03:17 PM
I think a Cryptic dev once posted something to the effect of "Once we give something to players, we basically never take it away." So I doubt this would happen. Carriers aren't my favorite thing either, if it is any consolation.
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# 49
01-06-2011, 03:41 PM
Quote:
Not correct I'm afraid.
I spefically checked for risks regarding this matter in the TNGTM and the only risk comes from the simple reason that at warp, the saucer is ahead of the stardrive but has not warpdrive itself.
The issue comes in maintaining such close proximity at such high velocity.


Quote:
The fighters the Maquis used in "The Maquis Pt2" were unquestionably Warp-Capable and they use the identical model for both ships.
I would note that identical model doesn't equate to identical ships. Also, the ships used by the Maquis were refit with whatever they could obtain and used old rebuilt engines. I can't say for certain if this is the case or not, but it would not be unreasonable for the Maquis to have upgraded the fighters to be warp capable, since they themselves would definitely not have had access to Carriers.

Quote:
The Galaxy can use it's shuttlebays for a great many different functions, including as emergency hospitals which would be more likely to be needed to evacuate and treat personnell from badly damaged ships, which tend to come up in a major battle.
They could be, sure, but it was usually the cargo bays that were converted into triage centers. Also, they wouldn't have been able to evacuate personal from badly damaged ships, since they wouldn't be able to beam anyone aboard due to having their shields up, since they'd be in a combat situation.

Quote:
Additionally as I mentioned above those fighters are over 30 meters long and wide
I'd like to see where you're getting those numbers. Shuttlecraft, which carry more than 2 people, were only 3-6 meters in length, for example. Some were smaller (such as the shuttles designed to be carried by Defiant-class starships). I would agree that the fighters were larger than the shuttlecraft, but frankly, "over 30 meters long and wide" seems a bit much.

Quote:
Again, as I mentioned above they were out before they even knew there was an enemy fleet out there.
Why?
Aestetics?
Boredom?
They knew the fleet was out there. They knew they were going into battle. They may not have known the exact position or exact numbers, but they knew it was there.

Quote:
And now you indicate they would have been launched from regular ships; from shuttlebays.
I said that's a possibility, not a definitive "that's what happened." The existence of federation fighters implies the existence of either federation Carriers or the capability of other ships to act as pseudo-Carriers, but it is only an implication, not an absolute.

However, that really isn't much of an issue when it comes to the carriers in STO, considering that the only support they need is Carriers existing -at all- in the Star Trek universe, which they do, as seen in Nemesis and Voyager in particular. Whether or not someone -likes- them existing is irrelvant. They are canon.

Quote:
If this is any indication it would mean Starfleet came to the conclusion that carriers are not really that useful.
Particularly in peace time, what would you do with them?
Considering that the Federation was dedicated to peaceful exploration and preferred to avoid war whenever possible, it is not at all inconcievable that the Federation -would- choose not to construct dedicated Carriers. Of course, that would also make it conceivable that the Federation would choose not to construct Fighters, but they did construct them.

However, that really has nothing to do with the existence of KDF Carriers. While the Federation is a strong advocate of peace, the Klingons are strong advocates of war and combat. Even in "peace" times, they still have lots of in-house fighting, and there's really not much in the way of a true "peace time" for the Klingons anyway.

Again, I point to the fact that it is canon for Carriers to exist in the Star Trek universe. The Remans and the Trabe both felt that Carriers were appropriate ships to build, for example.

Quote:
Again quite obviously Starfleet rather experimiented with ships like the Prometheus than developing a carrier.
Appearently they saw a concept (which is basically the inverse of a Power Rangers Robot which ususually starts out as seperate parts that connect to become more powerful) like this as more promising otherwise they would have never built even a prototype.
For the purpose of "Escorts," it is more promising, at least in theory. However, we only know of the prototype in regards to the Prometheus-class, at least "in canon." The purpose of a prototype is to determine if the concept works. Just because it seems "more promising" doesn't mean that it actually is. We don't actually know which way their research goes after the 2370s.

Quote:
In the case of the Kazon, because something is called a "carrier" does not indicate it's even remotely like the carrier you're thinking of.
Carrier means it carries...something.
In case of the Kazon and their somewhat strange fleet structure where these large ships are basically large mobile centers it probably means it carries a lot of personnell.
Also it would be the most ineffective carrier I ever saw on television.
In the pilot it was escorted by two (!!!) fighters.
In basics 8 of them launched so few fighters it's not really any better.
If that is the concept of a carrier you're referring to it's no wonder the Federation never developed one.
*shakes her head* Actually, I don't think the Kazon ships are ever actually -called- Carriers in the series. But they do carry Kazon Fighters. A Carrier doesn't have to be -effective- to be a Carrier. The Kazon used technology they'd stolen from the Trabe after their successful revolt as well as technology they could manage to steal from anyone else. Doesn't mean they used it well or new how to be particularly quick in replacing their Fighters when they were destroyed.

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The fighters the Scimitar carried were called "flyers", they were extremely small (about the size of a shuttlepod), they were equipped with a tiny gun and they were appearently intended to be used in an evironment with gravity.
Otherwise they would nove relied so much on an antigrav-system for propulsion.
They were also not used by the Scimitar in the fight against the Enterprise even after the cloak on the ship was disabled and even Shinzon began to loose his cool.
So they were appearently not space-fighters but aerospace fighters intended to operate against planetary targets not ships.
This is further supported by the "Tales of the Dominion War" book which explains how Shinzon got his hands on the Thalaron device.
The Scorpions are used as planetary attack fighters there as well.
Of course since this is soft-canon I understand perfectly that you may wish to ignore this piece of information.
Even if their primary purpose was for in-atmosphere situations, that doesn't change the fact that the Scimitar was a Carrier equipped with a large supply of Fighters.

Regardless, they weren't used against the Enterprise E in Nemesis largely because Shinzon was cocky and because it wasn't long after the cloak was disabled that the Enterprise rammed the Scimitar, destroying the fighter/shuttle bay. http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Scorpion_class And, they were Attack Fighters.

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Your view that whoever has fighters must have a carrier ignores the fact that for example on Earth very many nations have fighters but only very few have carriers (GB, US, France) so why would the Federation have to base its fighter operations on the methods of those nations that have fighters?
I never said that Fighters necessitate Carriers. I've only stated that Fighters in interstellar space imply Carriers. I have never stated that the Federation absolutely has Fighters, only that there is reason to suspect they might. In regards to Carriers existing, I have only referenced Carriers that definitely appeared on-screen, such as the Scimitar and the Kazon Carriers.

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No. There are no various sizes, they're two completely different ships.

The "Maquis Fighter" aka "Academy Trainer" aka "Federation Attack Fighter" is a Peregrine-type Courier Shuttle, the "Maquis Raider" is a Ju'day-class Freighter. Sadly, many people have mixed them up due to their somewhat similar general shape and affiliation, so even the Memory Alpha articles about them are a bit untidy and lack a clear connection.
That may be true. I don't know where you're getting the information, though, so I can't confirm it.

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Actually, we've seen Runabouts being used for combat in DS9, in lieu of a larger ship. And they outperformed the Peregrines they were attacking.
This may be nitpicking, but then, you're sorta nitpicking as well. Runabouts are Runabouts, not "shuttlecrafts" or "shuttlepods." My statement was refering specifically to shuttlecraft (and shuttlepods, really) and not to Runabouts, which were designed more in line with the concepts of larger ships than regular shuttlecraft and shuttlepods, which were designed primarily for short-term and short-range use.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 50
01-06-2011, 03:42 PM
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I think you're misinterpreting starship evolution here. The Federation has always been capable of fitting firepower into compact designs - see the ENT-era Vulcan fighters you linked.
To an extent, yes, but not to the degree of the Defiant-class. If you recall, one of the problems they had with the Defiant-class design was that it was so overloaded with weaponry that it nearly tore itself apart trying to maneuver. Even the "finished" design had to be tweaked by O'Brien in order to work at max efficiency and effectiveness. However, the firepower of a Defiant-class starship could have easily been put into the frame of a Galaxy-class starship due to its size. It simply would've meant replacing much of the interior of the ship that is otherwise intended for civilian/recreational/non-combat use. It would have, however, lacked the extensive maneuverability of the final version of the Defiant-class, which was something particularly desirable when dealing with the Borg, which the Defiant was designed to combat in the first place.

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Not really. Every time fighters showed up on screen we've seen them die in droves, one-shotted by the capital ships. The one and only advantage Starfleet had with the Peregrines is quite simply that they had them and their pilots ready (due to the Peregrine being used as an Academy Trainer) and they needed every single ship for Operation Return. It was an all-or-nothing assault whose outcome would determine the fate of the Quadrant and the Federation as a whole, for if those Dominion reinforcements would have come through, the UFP may as well have surrendered instantly.
Um, they were primarily one-shotted by dominion ships, which were also devastatingly powerful compared to anything the Federation had fought before. Just because they were being destroyed easily by the dominion ships doesn't mean they were easily destroyed by alpha quadrant ships.

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And I fail to see this supposedly superior maneuverability in civilian couriers that let themselves get disabled even by Runabouts(!).
If you're refering to encounters involving the Maquis, well, the Maquis had obtained them -very- second hand, and often were using rebuilt engines that were decades old. Runabouts, themselves, were fairly maneuverable and fairly well armed, without having to worry about trying to obtain equipment from potentially unreliable sources (such as Quark).

Also, many of the pilots of Maquis ships were civilians. They may have been good by civilian standards, but they weren't starfleet trained pilots.

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In any case we have seen what the Peregrines can do on-screen, and frankly, I was not impressed.
Again, that was against Dominion ships, and Cardassian ships that had likely been upgraded by the Dominion. And we also saw Mirandas do just as poorly. I even recall some BoPs doing just as poorly.

Also, it's been about 40 years since the Dominion War. I'm pretty sure that the technology for Fighters would've advanced a good bit in the meantime.

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I think he was referring to the reformed Vulcans, not the militarized despotists from the ENT era.
Aside from their view of Mind Melds, the Vulcans really haven't changed much between the 22nd century and the 24th century.

Regardless, he's arguing that -Fighters- do not exist at all in Star Trek, when they very clearly do.

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As for the Maquis and the Dominion War, those were still not fighters but repurposed shuttlecraft. The Vulcans have since reformed. The Kazon are not part of the Federation and do not really seem to /care much for the loss of life.
They're classified as Federation Attack Fighters. They were used as civilian couriers prior to 2370, but the Maquis modified theirs to be more useful beyond simply being couriers, and it's absurd to think that Starfleet didn't modify the ones they were using as well, and they had much better resources for that purpose than the Maquis did.

As I said before, the Vulcans really haven't changed much.

Again, this has little to do with whether or not the -Federation- has Carriers and Fighters, but with whether or not Carriers and Fighters exist -in the Star Trek universe.-

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I maintain that carriers have no place in the setting. This is not Star Wars. Trek has always been about "naval" style combat, not waves of squishy suicide bombers duking it out. DS9 felt weird enough with the whole "let's copy the Shadow War" going on. It moved away noticeably from the Starfleet we knew from TNG and TOS.

Some like it and deem it "more realistic". I say we don't need to copy the real world this extensively, other franchises do it enough. If you remove the things that set Trek apart from other settings, you're diminishing its uniqueness.
First off, Aircraft Carriers are a part of Naval Combat, so your whole "naval style combat" idiocy is simply that, idiocy.

Second, DS9 may have moved things in a somewhat different direction in certain respects, but it didn't give up anything that makes Star Trek Star Trek. And while it may not be your cup of tea, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it is canon and is part of the setting.

Additionally, Voyager returned very much to the feel of TOS in -many- ways and is one example of Carriers existing in the setting. Also, the movie Nemesis is TNG-based and also includes a Carrier.

Carriers have as much place in Star Trek as they do in any other sci-fi series.

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Well, I'd argue that the Romulans have less concern for their Reman troops than Starfleet has for its own.
Well, there's no indication that the Romulans were actually in charge of the Reman ships, in particular the design of the Scimitar. Without further information on that, which can't be found in "hard canon," there's no way to make a full determination here.

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The same way the civilian pilots that were using these very same shuttles did before. And the Maquis.

In fact, were not the Delta Flyer and the Danubes used for equally long voyages without any problems as well? You're still seeing too much "fighter" where in actuality the Peregrine is a shuttlecraft that might even feature its own replicator.

"They used to shoehorn half a dozen cadets into one of these things for weeks at a time."
- Tom Paris, about the type-IX shuttlecraft
First off, you're mistaken in calling the Fighters "shuttlecrafts."

Second, what you do with cadets doesn't apply to what you do with fighter pilots. Also, the Delta Flyer was specifically designed to be larger and more "livable" than the Class-2 Shuttlecraft.

The Runabouts were also specifically designed for more long-term use.

Even as couriers, the "Peregrine-class" ships would not have been designed as significantly for "comfort" or long-term single-trip use.

The Maquis weren't using the Fighters in that way either. You're getting confused with the raiders, which were the larger ships like Chakotay's.

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Aside from the Prometheus' ridiculous concept (which sadly still is canon) you cannot really compare the three frigate-sized components of the Prometheus to some tiny shuttle that goes poof as soon as someone so much as locks onto it with a phaser bank.

... actually, didn't the devs put out an in-universe reason for why MVAM isn't available for the Prometheus in STO? Something about Starfleet intentionally removing it?
First off, I referenced it as an example of the Federation testing concepts of using smaller craft for higher maneuverability in combat.

Additionally, you're still being a complete idiot by talking about the fighters going poof so easily. Mirandas and BoPs were being one-shotted by the Dominion ships as well. The Dominion ships were massively more powerful than anything the Federation had encountered before, except for the Borg.

Even Romulan Warbirds and Cardassian Galor-class starships weren't surviving long against Dominion ships. Same with Galaxies and Excelsiors.

Also, since they were utilizing ships that had up until that decade been primarily civilian ships, it's not unreasonable that they would decide to develope much more advanced Fighters for future use, since it would've become obvious that those civilian designed ships weren't good enough.

It's the same reason behind the development of ships like the Defiant-class. They realized their current ships just weren't good enough.
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