Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Idea for Refitting old ships
01-07-2011, 05:04 PM
It was mentioned in this last ask cryptic that there was a plan to refit ships as old as say the Miranda. I personally like the idea and would like to suggest several suggestions on how they could implement this idea.

Ok my personal favorite idea is to charge some assets depending on the current tier of the ship. By assets I mean EC, Latnium, Emblems, etc. The price for the upgrade would be different and probably more for the tier gap. This means that to increase a Tier 2 ship to Tier 5 would be more than Tier 4 to Tier 5. It also means that one could bring a Tier 1 ship to say Tier 3 etc. After having payed whatever it will cost and whatever currency one would then have an amount points that they could use to upgrade the ship. These points would again vary on the gap of the Tier a player would use to raise the ship. These points would then be used to "purchase" an upgrade for the ship. For example lets say I have an Excalibur class ship i want to make Tier 5, and lets say i have 35 points. Now I would use these points to purchase upgrades such as adding a weapons slot to the front for say 2 points and one to the rear for the same. And a new Engineering console for 2 points and a new Tactical and Science console for 3 points. (I will explain why later) Same for the BOff slots. Adding and increasing each slot for 3 points each or something like that.

With this system limits would have to be put in place naturally. We do not want a Tier 2 ship running around with twelve weapon slots or something. These limits would not be to severe though as the goal would be to create a more unique ship. Unlike now where we see the same ships flying about and in PvP we know we can be killed by most escorts or most science ships or we can fight these ships etc. This would mean more ships flying about and each more uniquely equipped. For example you can give an Excalibur class ship more tactical consoles, or more Science BOff slots, maybe even give it five rear weapon slots. This would mean when you see a ship coming at you in PvP who knows what it can do and if you can take it down or not. This would allow for a lot more customization in your ships and more personal gameplay.

Now why it would cost more for Tactical or Science consoles or BOff slots on a cruiser is simple. While customization is key and should be encouraged there should still remain some class relation. This is to prevent an escort for example to have the Engineering and Science slots of a Star Cruiser and thereby making able to heal as good as them as well making an overpowered combo. The best way to do this is to say yes you can upgrade a science ship to fight like a cruiser but not quite as well as a cruiser. They still were designed to do what they do. Now what the customization does is make it so you can balance the ship or adjust it to have some surprises and fit your play style the best a ship can.

As for the already maxed out Tier 5 ships. I propose that they have either a few customization points granted to them or that you can take stuff off your current ship and then spend those points on something else. Example being taking a Star Cruiser and removing a rear weapon slot and using the points to move it to the front, or purchase another console, etc. This would allow for the same customization for these ships and keep them in the game instead of endless mobs of Miranda class ships flying around in PvP.

Lastly what are your thoughts?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
01-08-2011, 03:22 PM
I posted what I thought would be a good system once before. I don't think Tier 1 ships shoudl become as powerful as Tier 5 ships. However, there needs to be a way to make them more viable at higher level. I feel that the key to this is BO slots.

To briefly reiterate my idea, allow a captain to upgrade a BO slot when promoted. Thus, I could change a single BO slot from Lt. to Lt. Commander. Alternatively, we could add a single Ensign Level Universal slot.

So, suppose I was flying an NX. At Lt. Cdr, I add a Universal slot. I now have four BO slots, all ensign. At Commander, I upgrade the Universal slot to Lt. At Captain I upgrade it again, to Lt. Commander. At Admiral, I upgrade it one last time, to Commander. I'm now an Admiral with an NX with Ensign level BO slots in Engineering, Tactical and Science, and one Commander Universal slot.

Alternatively, I might have added the slots such that I have four Lt. level slots, or 1 Lt. Commander 2 Lt. and 1 ensign. Or what have you.

The ship itself would still be weaker than a Tier 5 ship, but we would be more viable.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
01-08-2011, 04:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I don't think Tier 1 ships shoudl become as powerful as Tier 5 ships. However, there needs to be a way to make them more viable at higher level. I feel that the key to this is BO slots.
My thoughts exactly.

From my experience (flying a Nova on T4) I have to say, I missed BO powers the most. Anything else (hull, weapon slots, etc) can well remain like in the original ship to keep the differences between individual ship classes and a resemblance of consistency.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
01-08-2011, 09:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
I posted what I thought would be a good system once before. I don't think Tier 1 ships shoudl become as powerful as Tier 5 ships. However, there needs to be a way to make them more viable at higher level. I feel that the key to this is BO slots.

To briefly reiterate my idea, allow a captain to upgrade a BO slot when promoted. Thus, I could change a single BO slot from Lt. to Lt. Commander. Alternatively, we could add a single Ensign Level Universal slot.

So, suppose I was flying an NX. At Lt. Cdr, I add a Universal slot. I now have four BO slots, all ensign. At Commander, I upgrade the Universal slot to Lt. At Captain I upgrade it again, to Lt. Commander. At Admiral, I upgrade it one last time, to Commander. I'm now an Admiral with an NX with Ensign level BO slots in Engineering, Tactical and Science, and one Commander Universal slot.

Alternatively, I might have added the slots such that I have four Lt. level slots, or 1 Lt. Commander 2 Lt. and 1 ensign. Or what have you.

The ship itself would still be weaker than a Tier 5 ship, but we would be more viable.
This is really only for Tier 1/2 ships vs Tier 5. If we remember that the Akira is a late 24th century battle ship and the Olympic was flown in AGT. And almost every ship in STO faught against the Borg or Dominion only a score years ago STO timeline.

I believe that we should not be looking to improve or refit the lower teired ships to be tier 5 capable but if thwy had access to the BO slots of a Tier 5 they would be able to put up a fight against a tier 5. I'd even wager that a good captain in a tier 1, 2 or three ship, having access to a full compliment of BO skills could beat a poor to fair captain in a T5! So what does that say about the ships themselves?

Dan hinted that we may be seeing something like this with the crew system but it is still yet to be determined. I would not be against lower tiered ships being able to pick up one or two console slots to help bolster them slightly but the weapon slots and design of the ship is what it is and thus would be a reason to mature out of that shup to something new. However, if you absolutly had to have your favorite ship in game you could compliment it to hold its own at end game.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
01-08-2011, 09:43 PM
I would like to see any system for retrofitting ships use some combination of crafting and an EC sink. We have uses for most other currencies, but we do not have good EC sinks.

I definitely enjoy my Nova quite a bit; I prefer the Nova to most of the other Science ships, so I'd really enjoy being able to fly it at T4+ with appropriate Boff consoles.

It has more than enough weapons slots, IMO, but some ships might need slight adjustments. Lower tier = weaker is something of a gaming conceit required to give a feeling of progression within the game. The Nova was a new-ish mid-to-late 24th Century design.

Other ships might also need slight adjustments aside from Boff slots to make them viable at higher tiers, but so long as the player is willing to invest the time, credits, and commodities, I'm all for it.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
01-08-2011, 09:57 PM
I just want to be able to use any ship "skin" at max level, don't make changes to the stats or BO slots or anything compared to other ships at top tier, make them exactly the same just let me use whatever hull I want.

just have the ships fit into whatever category is best, for example if you upgrade the defiant, make it either a fleet escort or the other one, giving it the exact same stats and config as that ship type, just keeping the defiant skin. seems the simplest and best way for it to work for me. actually, maybe even let the player pick what category they want it to be in.. don't like fleet escorts? make it a tactical escort then

with this system you don't need to consider balancing PVP even more than you have to now, because all of the ship stats will remain the same as the current ones (in terms of BO slots, weapon/console slots etc)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
01-08-2011, 10:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by heimskringla View Post
Lower tier = weaker is something of a gaming conceit required to give a feeling of progression within the game.
Not really - it's realism that even with upgrades you just cannot make a Miranda-class as powerful as a Sovereign. And in case of a Nova: She might have new tech, but the Voyager being tactically superior was pointed out by Janeway on screen, and Ransom agreed. STO's tier progression does make sense. In a way.

You could argue that technology upgrades are represented by fitting higher Mk gear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Intrepidox View Post
I just want to be able to use any ship "skin" at max level, don't make changes to the stats or BO slots or anything compared to other ships at top tier, make them exactly the same just let me use whatever hull I want.
And that's exactly what I don't want to see. Really, an ancient TOS-Connie or NX shouldn't be able to beat the crap out of a Sovereign.

"Viable at endgame" does not mean "superior to contemporary designs".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
01-09-2011, 01:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Not really - it's realism that even with upgrades you just cannot make a Miranda-class as powerful as a Sovereign. And in case of a Nova: She might have new tech, but the Voyager being tactically superior was pointed out by Janeway on screen, and Ransom agreed. STO's tier progression does make sense. In a way.

You could argue that technology upgrades are represented by fitting higher Mk gear.

"Viable at endgame" does not mean "superior to contemporary designs".
I wasn't actually thinking about the Tier I ships when I wrote that comment. The Miranda is certainly a bit long in the tooth by now.

You could probably outfit an Olympic Class vessel similarly to a Luna Class vessel. The same could be said for many of the post Tier I ships. In Star Trek canon the two ships have divergent mission profiles. STO doesn't care about mission profiles, just weapon, boff, and equipment slots.

Most Captains are flying mid to late 24th Century vessels as it is.

Whatever happens I would like to see further specialization of refit ships for their mission profile. Maybe the Nova, for example, has a moderate boost to Sensor-based skills given its design for planetary survey and research skills. Maybe the Olympic gets a boost to ship healing abilities or moderately reduces the cooldown on ground based boff healing skills.

I'd like to see unique features rather than simple cut 'n paste jobs.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
01-09-2011, 07:52 AM
I'm all for this - as long as I can get a refit 1976 space shuttle Entreprise that is!
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
01-09-2011, 07:54 AM
As long as the NX and Pre-Order TOS Con. ship can't be upgraded I'm for some Teir bumping >_>

Plus we were told that crafting will have a big part in this.
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