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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
TLR version (BUT RECOMMEND FULL READ)

For a Successful FED or KLINGON you need:
  • Must haveVoice comms
  • Have good fleet commanders.
  • Proper ship sets which compliment other people in your team and not just yourself
  • Proper tactics which go hand in hand with your setup. e.g. not setup to do 'A' but doing 'B'


Klingons have done this and have their setups, and have less pugers than feds.

Average fed pvper = a fed who joins a pvp queue, shoots, heals himself, heals someone else once in a while, runs away sometimes. Etc.

Klingon: best setups for the team. Fleet commander adjusting to battlefield situation, focusing fire, best tactics which compliment the setup, not work against it.

Stop calling for nerfs, you have access to the same tactics/gear as klingons the ships are different yes but i the end the same.


************
Original post.



let me help to shed some light on this topic.

As a once hard core alliance pvper in eve and fleet commander I think it qualifies me somewhat at spaceship pvp, even though both games are different, certain principles exist in both games.

Fundamentals of the type of pvp we're doing is

voice comms
ships / ship setups

People are told in order of priority what ships to bring for fleets.

e.g. fleet forming at 8p.m to protect our space from invasion.
ships needed: ship1 >> ship 2>> ship3 etc etc, the more than sign is literal, the ships listed to the left are priority. So 'ship1' has a higher priority than 'ship2'. So if you can fly ship1, DO NOT bring ship2. In cases where after a count of how many of what type you have, you can be told to switch if the quota is met.

In eve ship setups were usually standard across the board so ships in fleets flew a standardized fit. If you saw 100 Megathron battleships in a fleet; chances are that the players (skills permitting) all had the same fitting, so they were all capable of roughly the same DPS, Weapon Range, Speed and hit points.

This evolved over the years.

It eventually evolved to being told specifically WHICH ships to bring and not just ANY battleship

So it went like this

Alliance Mail

Fleet at 8p.m.
Ships needed in order of priority:: 'SPECIFIC BATTLESHIP' FITTED A SPECIFIC WAY > 'SPECIFIC OTHER SHIP FITTED A SPECIFIC WAY' etc etc...

eventually the last ship type requested for the fleet would say 'rest' meaning if you can't fly any of the ships/setups listed, then bring anything....

Example: commonly in even now shield fitted drakes are the fotm. By shield fitted I mean fit in a way that the shields are the tank of the ship, because in eve you can shield and armor tank but only one at a time

So fleets will call for shield logistic ships known as Scimitars. These logistics ships function like your remote powers in STO, target a team/fleet mate and repair his shields.

Example of new age eve fleet:

Scimitars > shield fitted drakes> other shield fitted battlecruisers > E-war> dictors> bombers>tackle>rest

So the order of priority always goes like this, can I fly a scimitar? no. Can I fly a shield fitted drake? And you go down the line until you find one you can fly of the ships called for, and you should generally fly the ships with the highest priority, so don't bring tackle if you can fly a scimitar, UNLESS you are told to switch because you have enough of a particular ship.

Hopefully you get that. I said all that to say that the fleet or team as you know it with the best setup coupled with the best tactic BASED on that setup wins. There are other variables since thats Eve(LIKE LAG) but those are the most important. Example of what I mean by tactics/setup go hand in hand. If you fit a fleet of ships to be 'snipers' i.e able to shoot from a very long range this generally means you have crap DPS, but then if you go and engage the enemy at close range, you are not flying according to how you are fit.

Similar like if an Escort runs in GUNS blazing and dies and goes, WTF THE ENEMY IS OVER POWERED.

We want to avoid having nerfs where no over power exists. We want to avoid nerfs or buffs to either faction based on clueless whiners.

In the end, the real test of if something is causing an issue is this. You put together a good or 'expert' fed fleet with a fleet commander and voice comms and they should already have their pvp setups/tactics already worked out. VS a similar klingon team. If the klingons win ALL THE TIME hands down then something is wrong.

This would require independent evaluation as the feds could simply be using the wrong tactics and/or the klingons could be adapting on the fly to counter those tactics, but this can be seen in the evaluation.

So I said all that about eve to say this.

The players who pvp with their Klingon characters (as I am sure a lot of them also have fed characters), generally are hardcore, knowledgeable expert pvpers in any game they've played, MMO or not. A lot of klingons will play both factions but there might be some players who only play klingon and who only PVP with klingon, and therefore I am certain if you rake up a handful of random klingon players on the server on a given night and a handful of random fed players, you will find the klingons are better at pvp, and I don't mean pvpers, I just mean any player anywhere in the game.

If you do not use voice and you are against a team using voice you will ALWAYS get owned unless the team using voice is pure rubbish and has rubbish setups.

Imagine if you were able to fly/fight/pvp with thought and not need the keyboard mouse vs people who need the keyboard mouse, you would win easier as well, you could be doing things more quickly and able to react more quickly, no more would you die because you couldn't click that defense buff in time etc etc.

It's kind of the same thing with voice comms vs typing, you have to take your hands off of the keyboard to type, and those who pvp already know that pvping is so hectic that when you are in the fight, just staying on target and using your buffs and keeping your weapons to bear on a moving target who is ALSO jockeying for position AGAINST YOU is a lot of work.

And if you do not take your hands off of the keyboard to type how are you communicating with your team? You are not. You will lose plain n simple.

Next thing setup/tactics. The klingons, since they pvp way more, since they are the 'pvp faction' and really ANY player who pvps a lot with fleets/friends will develop certain standard setups and tactics.

Certain players in teams will complement others, whether in powers or weapons. No longer are you thinking of just yourself and your ship but how does XXX power help your team mate? It could be a science debuff combination which significantly lowers your opponents resistance allowing for your escort to do his thing.

There are infinite combination's and strategies. Those who figure out the best of both worlds and mesh them well will win more often because they have simply spent more time researching how to win.

Another example from eve is an alliance known as Pandemic Legion. Any eve player has heard of them even if you aren't directly involved in eve alliance warfare. They have come up with and implemented the best fleet setups and tactics in the game period and even though they are a small alliance compared to the other alliances, they are the most feared alliance in the game. They fight hugely out numbered all the time and I am talking like 500 VS 150 in numbers and they have won on multiple occasions.

Aside from the fact that they are general idiots to people, they are the best at what they do. PVP. They have a group of people who crunch numbers and research fits and tactics to go with those fits to come up with the best. In large fleet warfare and also in the alliance tournament which has only a max number of 10 players per team or something like that (small in scope anyway)Pandemic Legion still wins.

So Pandemic legion win 9/10 times in the worst odds, not even in even fights, everyone has access to the same setups/modules/ships they do, but they still win, because they devised the best way to utilize them.

Just like STO, everyone has access to the same ships/BO powers/BO/gear/tactics but not everyone can put it all together in one unique package like how some of these klingon players do. And maybe some fed teams.

The majority of Fed pvpers or should I say Fed people who are pvping, are just pvping casually, they do not care about voice comms, they do not care about setup/ship/tactics, they just run n gun, heal when they have to, heal someone else if they can and that is the extent of their tactic. Sometimes they run if they can, (forgot that part)

A team with an Fleet commander, who is calling targets for focus fire, directing his team, accounting for variables, all over voice, with good setups to compliment each other, etc etc will win. And they are not many elite teams like this floating around, the majority floating around is average Fed joe in a pvp queue.

So I sincerely hope cryptic read this and do not buff/debuff/nerf stuff where it isn't warranted.

I also hope there will emerge some good fed pvpers, I might have to join a pvp fleet and get in on the action it is just that the PVP in sto is so limited and small in scope compared to eve, that I do not feel it warrants playing until some sort of pvp end game, either fleets competing for resources/territory or far off sector territorial pvp over some new area of discovered space. Plenty of room on the galaxy map.

It is just like the STFs, voice experienced, fleet teams get them done while the pugs are complaining.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
01-09-2011, 05:08 PM
In PuGs I wouldn't so much call it a Fleet Commander...more of the person that sets an example for people to follow. The average Fed can be a decent PvPer and do their job if they follow/watch someone who knows what they're doing. I think the chaos of battle sometimes overwhelms people so if they have a clear target/objective they'll find it easier to concentrate on the task at hand.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
01-09-2011, 09:50 PM
There is one thing I find is a lot more frequent on klingon side, your team mates will heal you, focus fire if necessary and they will run away when taking to much heat. In fed pugs that is a different matter entirely, I still get amazed when you're the only escort on a team, and end up with top healing when all is said and done.

So the feds thinking; that BoP player is cheating, we can't take down his shields, watch his buff bar, more than likely he's got 2-3 transfer shield strength going.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
01-09-2011, 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pjokk
There is one thing I find is a lot more frequent on klingon side, your team mates will heal you, focus fire if necessary and they will run away when taking to much heat.
All true - especially the focus fire. I think that's one of the reasons people think Klinks inherently do more dps.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
01-09-2011, 10:06 PM
From my experience, technically both sides are equal - to a point.

1 - Klingon DHCs: Believe it or not, DHCs on Battlecruisers alongside BoPs and Raptors really do make a difference in offense.

2 - Cloaking: You effectively pick when and where to fight.

A cloaked playerm wait til you're vulnerable and strike. Which the ambush cloak attack by an escort can lead to some serious damage or the death of unalert players. Klingons have the edge here over players with the Defiant-R and the Galaxy-X.

3 - The BoP Versitility: The BoP can be a hard nut to crack under a competant captain. She can tank as well as a Cruiser, almost as strong as a Raptor, and can be a powerful support ship.


To me, it's these three things is what really gives Klingons the impression of being overpowered. Then factor in teamwork and you got trouble.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
01-09-2011, 10:14 PM
Klingons are primarily escorts/BoPs. I rarely see cruisers with DHCs. That's a lot of the 'Klinks have OP damage' right there.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
01-09-2011, 10:48 PM
DHC? come on who runs those on a battle cruiser. Ok some do... but there in no way more effective then a cruiser with beams.

Cloaking sure... that can give you an advantage for 5 seconds.

And HERE is a newsflash... a well flown escort will tank 1000% better then a badly flown cruiser.

Honesty my Klinky Friends and I love to fly an all escort team... and guess mostly we don't need a "healer"
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
01-10-2011, 12:49 AM
Basically what youre saying is : The team that comes prepared will win.

No surprise in that one.

However, as it stands in STO right now, there is no reason to actually win the matches.

You have one faction, which by design is more focused on PvP than the other.. The other faction is the "Hero" faction from the franchise. Naturally, a lot of the people most interested in PvP, gathered on the side, which was the "PvP Faction". KDF was (and to some extent, still is) more dependent on PvP. Most of the fans of the movies and series gathered on the "Hero" side.

So if you have a game, where death means nothing, where you get rewarded regardless of outcome, where 90% of the top 10% of PvPers (pulling numbers out of my behind, bear with me) are one 1 side, where you have one side with.. Controversial... Abilities (BCloak/Carriers)... You will never get people to try and win at PvP. People simply dont care.. You cannot force people to enjoy PvP. They only do it because they get shinies for it, without risk to themselves.

As I see it, you must have an incentive to get people to try winning at PvP, if theyre not so inclined allready:

1: Change Emblem payout so only winning matches count toward the mission completion.
2: Remove Emblems from PvP rewards.
3: Add a purpose for PvP (Zone control or whatever)
4: Add PvP loot (PvP specific rewards that drops for the winners after each match - FvK only)
5: Add PvP "collections", titles and accolades (again for winning - Seperate for FvK, KvK and FvF)
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 9
01-10-2011, 03:49 AM
Azurian makes good points

Other things

BOP's being able to use photonic shock and SNB with high dps are incredibly difficult to defend against, much more dangerous than fed sci ships due to the BOPs much greater offensive capabilities.

Carriers can all easily use photonic shock more stun locking.

Pet Spam the Kar Fi frigates tricoblt mines is an op feature causing yet more stun locking.

Pet spam can hugely increase DPS and generally make play quite a bit more difficult, this can not always be countered, particularly if you are being photonic stun locked by pets and bops.

As well as the points Azurian makes this gives klingons a noticable advantage

A good example of this is the Sci WIzards using these tactics in thier klingon ships F v K premade they are almost imposible to play let alone beat, even though the players are always drunk,most have mental issues and they are usually looking at pictures of nakid persons , a total sign of how op some kling ships are at present.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 10
01-10-2011, 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Covenanter
A good example of this is the Sci WIzards using these tactics in thier klingon ships F v K they are almost to play let alone beat, even though the players are always drunk,most have mental issues and they are usually looking at pictures of nakid persons , a total sign of how op some kling ships are at present.
LOL Random you do make me laugh, just what i needed this morning, what with that hangover an all
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