Lt. Commander
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# 21
01-19-2011, 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post


Oh, and Doogie? As to the size difference, watch the Battle of Sector 001, and then the final battle from Endgame, look at the size of the Cubes compared to Voyager, and compared to the Enterprise-E. The size difference is obvious.

Actually, come to think of it, the size of the Cubes from Wolf 359 and the Battle of Sector 001 were probably he biggest mistake the Borg made. Looking at the size of the entrance Apertures at the Transwarp Hub, a cube of their size couldn't fit, which explains why those cubes always appeared on the edges of Federation space and traveled towards Earth using conventional Warp. We never see the "big" Cubes use Transwarp. If they had used smaller, transwarp-capable cubes, they could have exited right on Earths doorstep with little to no warning, with dozens of the smaller Cubes to overwhelm any meager defensive force Starfleet may have been able to muster.
As far as why they "couldn't fit" the hub was just a prop to get the voyager crew home. If they had not chosen the Borg as the avenue to get Voyager home they would have picked something else. The Transwarp Hub had no effect on the TNG ship because had the writers intended to send the Borg that right trust me it would have made it would have fit the aperture.

The different camera angles are what made the ship look smaller. There is only one size listed for the Borg cube. You canít gauge a lot of stuff by what you see you have to actually measure the items.

Only one size listed for Borg cube.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Borg_cube
Lt. Commander
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# 22
01-19-2011, 11:20 PM
Yeah.. Just like there's only one size "listed" for the Defiant.. And only one size listed for the Borg Sphere..

Ex Astris Scientia lists two varieties of Cube, two varieties of Sphere, noting that the sizes of the Cubes from First Contact and Voyager do not match up based on the visual evidence. The same goes for the Spheres from First Contact and Voyager. During the Endgame battle, there's a scene where three Borg Cubes move to flank Voyager, giving us three comparative angles to judge their size relative to an Intrepid Class Starship, the multiple views of the Borg Cube from First Contact clearly establish it's size relative to the Miranda and the Defiant, ships we've seen alongside the Intrepid during the final scene of Voyager during it's escort to Earth.

It's clear from the available evidence that there are two sizes of Borg Cube.

(The whole "couldn't fit the Transwarp conduit" thing was my hypothesis as to why neither of the two Cubes sent to Earth used Transwarp, but the evidence showing a disparity in size between them and the mainstay Cubes from Voyager is still compelling)
Lt. Commander
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# 23
01-20-2011, 07:01 PM
I would like to point out that Endgame had numerous sizing errors that the FX department overlooked. The Nova compaired to the Neg'Var being the most obvious. I chalk up the cube sizing to the transwarp hub to the same issue as the Nova/Neg'Var. It was clearly stated in Q Who? the size of the cube. (I think it was something like 5KM across, or something like that)
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# 24
01-20-2011, 10:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhyrexianHero
The ending of Voyager's finale "Endgame" was deliberately ambiguous about the Borg's fate. What we do know is that Unimatrix 01, home to trillions of Borg, was destroyed, along with at least one version of the Borg Queen and the transwarp hub (one of 6 in the galaxy). The Unimatrix Zero rebellion may have slowed the Borg down as well after Voyager returned home.

However, we do know the Borg have not been destroyed or even crippled in that they are becoming more forceful in the Alpha and Beta Quadrant. They have also advanced enough to assimilate Species 8472 (Undine).

As far as the Delta Quadrant species, less advanced races do not mean that the Borg would get weaker -- it just means they wouldn't advance foward by leaps and bounds. Both Seven of Nine (in Path to 2409) and Leonard Nimoy's voiceover for Gamma Orionis said that these Borg are an even greater threat than they were in the past. Voyager returned in 2379 and the Borg have had three decades to rebuild. The Federation has more technology, but is also confronted with a war with the Klingons, an erratic Romulan Star Empire, an insurrection with the True Way Alliance, Undine infiltration, and a still largely unknown Iconian threat on the horizon.
Then why didn't we see them earlier? Why didn't they come back after a year, or 5 years like they did in the past? I'm not saying that they would get weaker, I'm arguing that they WOULDN'T gain technology as fast as they would in the past, so you are agreeing with me. And you are just proving my point! You have to remember, the Federation is outfitting its ships for WAR, so that means that they are more powerful than how they would be without all these threats. Just look at all the different wars and see the technological advances that came from those. So while the Borg have had 30 years to REBUILD, the Federation has had 30 years to ADVANCE. Why do you think Cryptic is putting in the Undine and Iconians as the "Ultra Baddies?" Because the Federation has PASSED the Borg, they are still a threat, don't get me wrong, if I saw a Cube heading to my ship I would **** my pants, but they are not the unbeatable enemy we know, not unless they assimilate something really powerful. Like Omega or Iconian technology.
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# 25
01-20-2011, 11:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by pdidy View Post
Then why didn't we see them earlier? Why didn't they come back after a year, or 5 years like they did in the past? I'm not saying that they would get weaker, I'm arguing that they WOULDN'T gain technology as fast as they would in the past, so you are agreeing with me. And you are just proving my point! You have to remember, the Federation is outfitting its ships for WAR, so that means that they are more powerful than how they would be without all these threats. Just look at all the different wars and see the technological advances that came from those. So while the Borg have had 30 years to REBUILD, the Federation has had 30 years to ADVANCE. Why do you think Cryptic is putting in the Undine and Iconians as the "Ultra Baddies?" Because the Federation has PASSED the Borg, they are still a threat, don't get me wrong, if I saw a Cube heading to my ship I would **** my pants, but they are not the unbeatable enemy we know, not unless they assimilate something really powerful. Like Omega or Iconian technology.
This is similar to what Seven of Nine commented about this in the Path of 2409, when she said the Federation was making a major mistake in dismantling its Borg Task Force. Please read it in full She basically said that just because the Borg haven't attacked recently (the interview was 2385, or 6 years after Voyager's return) that doesn't mean they're not coming:
Quote:
Do you actually believe that seven years, or twenty years, or a hundred years, would be anything more than a brief setback for the Borg? The Borg do not consider time as shallowly as humans do. The Borg are not limited by the life spans of individuals. The collective lives on. What one knew, all know. What one remembers, all remember.
The Federation would be annihilated by the Borg except they have other concerns (if a hundred Borg tactical cubes showed up in Sol System, that's game, set, and match for the Federation) and the distance involved (a la at least one of the transwarp hubs being destroyed, which had an aperture *extremely* close to Earth).
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# 26
01-22-2011, 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
\the sizes of the Cubes from First Contact and Voyager do not match up based on the visual evidence. The same goes for the Spheres from First Contact and Voyager. During the Endgame battle, there's a scene where three Borg Cubes move to flank Voyager, giving us three comparative angles to judge their size relative to an Intrepid Class Starship, the multiple views of the Borg Cube from First Contact clearly establish it's size relative to the Miranda and the Defiant, ships we've seen alongside the Intrepid during the final scene of Voyager during it's escort to Earth.

It's clear from the available evidence that there are two sizes of Borg Cube.

Which one of these lines is the longest?

http://missleaman.wordpress.com/2007...l-illusions-2/

As I said earlier, the apparent Borg-cube size discrepancies are caused by camera angles and you have to physically measure them you canít go by the visual size it is all an optical illusion.
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# 27
01-23-2011, 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doogie
As I said earlier, the apparent Borg-cube size discrepancies are caused by camera angles and you have to physically measure them you canít go by the visual size it is all an optical illusion.
Are you really suggesting that no accurate extrapolation of 2D images is possible? Really?

Please look at the Endgame battle. Seriously, three different Borg Cubes on screen, with Voyager at the same time, surrounding her. The only way for those Cubes to be the same size as the Cubes from Wolf 359 and 001 would be if Voyager was closest to the viewpoint, and all the cubes were a distance away in the background with no foreground indicators.

That is not the case, open a new tab and look at the angle of the Borg weapons fire 40 seconds into the video, (keep it paused there with the two beams hitting Voyager, we'll be returning to it) look at which face of the Cubes that fire originates from, the two cubes must be between our viewpoint and Voyager, any optical illusions in this shot this would make the two foreground Cubes appear larger, not smaller.

Now compare the size of the Borg Cube from J-25 (which the Cube from Wolf 359 is later stated to be the exact same size as) to the Enterprise-D here at 7:33 (open in a new tab in order to compare to Endgame), with the Tractor beam forming a connection between them establishing that the Enterprise is not significantly closer to our viewpoint than the Cube. You see how the Cube looms over the 641 meter long Enterprise, now, imagine a 344.5 meter Intrepid class in the picture, at just over half the Enterprises' size, picture them held the same distance away from the Cube.

Now go back and forth between them, comparing the size the J-25 Cube would be compared to an Intrepid class, and then contrasting it with the sizes of the Cubes from Endgame. Specifically pay attention to the Endgame Cube on the right, which, from the angle of it's fire, we can tell is in the foreground. That Cube is closer to our vantage point than Voyager is, thus, It would appear even smaller were we to view them from the same distance. so shrink that Cube however much you like, it will never appear as large compared to Voyager as the J-25 Cube does to the Enterprise, and the Enterprise is a larger ship than Voyager!

Now go forward in the Endgame video to 1;02 to 1:04, as Voyage passes directly abeam a Borg Cube, is that Cube anywhere near as large as the one from J-25? The only way it could be is if the Intrepid class is larger than a Galaxy Class. You must face the facts, The Cubes from Endgame are not the same size as the Cube from J-25, Wolf 359, or the Battle of Sector 001. There are at least two sizes of Borg Cube.

If you can show evidence or a canon piece of dialogue proving me wrong, I'm all ears, but being dismissive towards the evidence, insisting that it's all optical illusion, ignoring the content or context of that evidence is not substantive.
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# 28
01-23-2011, 10:57 PM
Due to optical illusions and not knowing the angles that are filmed you canít judge by visual evidence. The size would have to be separately measured. Find documentation stating they are meant to be different then go with that but if the sizes are apparently different that is just what needed to be done to fit it on the screen the way the art director decided to do it.

Right now we only have one things to go on and that is that the cubes are one size where are there different sized cubes mentioned?
Lt. Commander
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# 29
01-24-2011, 01:44 AM
I'd simply like a battle like the one in First Contact, with dozens of ships attacking a huge Borg Cube.

With a voiceover: "WE ARE THE BORG. LOWER YOUR SHIELDS AND PREPARE TO BE ASSIMILATED. YOUR SPECIES WILL ADAPT TO SERVE OURS. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE."

And a few NPC ships (Mirandas, Constitutions, ect) attacking ahead and get blown up.

And then 10-15 PCs having to coordinate.

Hell, I can't wait for the foundry! I'll write this mission, gals and guys!
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# 30
01-24-2011, 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
If you can show evidence or a canon piece of dialogue proving me wrong, I'm all ears, but being dismissive towards the evidence, insisting that it's all optical illusion, ignoring the content or context of that evidence is not substantive.
I have already linked this link. Look at the very bottom "The CGI studio model" The original model used in TNG was the bases for the CGI model seen in voyager. Even states that some footage from first contact was used.


http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Borg_cube

Take the time to read what I have linked.

I was never dismissive of the evidence and I will gladly acknowledge when I have been proven wrong. I was never proven wrong by you because you did trust what your eyes saw and what you see cannot always be trusted.

Learn this truth you cannot always trust what your eyes see.

The burden of proof is on you not me because I have already linked my proof.
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