Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 41
01-28-2011, 05:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
But since that's very unlikely, just explain how the "optical illusions" work in making all those Cubes from Voyager look so small compared to what we would expect considering the scenes from TNG & FC. Something about the angular relations? Color contrasts? Distance illusions that somehow still retain the firing angles we've seen? Anything?
That's relatively easy. The scaling in space shots can never be completey relied on because there are very few frames of reference to gauge distance or relative size. A good case in point is the Birds of Prey in "The Defector" which spawned arguments of 700m giant BoPs. The only way to clear that up was to actually reconstruct the scene in 3D using objects of an established scale and the image as reference (See Suricata's solution)

With the Borg cubes in Voyager, you only have the fixed reference of Voyager itself as an object of know scale (assuming the size of the cubes is what you are questioning). Unless another object of known size can be found to give a position and scale reference relative to a cube and Voyager, you'll never be able to accurately measure one.

There's also the matter of scaling for dramatic effect. Something regularly used in space shots, especially with the Defiant which has shrunk dramatically on occasion. They may have actually shrunk the cubes just to get more of them into shot for some scenes.

While they may look smaller to you, they may actually be bigger than the TNG ones for all we know. *shrugs*
Lt. Commander
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# 42
01-28-2011, 06:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightErrant View Post
That's relatively easy. The scaling in space shots can never be completey relied on because there are very few frames of reference to gauge distance or relative size. A good case in point is the Birds of Prey in "The Defector" which spawned arguments of 700m giant BoPs. The only way to clear that up was to actually reconstruct the scene in 3D using objects of an established scale and the image as reference (See Suricata's solution)

With the Borg cubes in Voyager, you only have the fixed reference of Voyager itself as an object of know scale (assuming the size of the cubes is what you are questioning). Unless another object of known size can be found to give a position and scale reference relative to a cube and Voyager, you'll never be able to accurately measure one.

There's also the matter of scaling for dramatic effect. Something regularly used in space shots, especially with the Defiant which has shrunk dramatically on occasion. They may have actually shrunk the cubes just to get more of them into shot for some scenes.

While they may look smaller to you, they may actually be bigger than the TNG ones for all we know. *shrugs*
Believe me, I for one am glad that the Borg never showed up in DS9 in anything other than flashbacks, DS9 had so many scaling issues it would blow any chance at any definitive sizing.

Watch the videos I linked in the earlier post, they have the Borg Cubes firing on Voyager, giving us the relative angle of those Cubes to Voyager, showing two of them to be in the foreground with Voyager in the background. Taking that into account, the Cubes in question, moved to an equal distance to our vantage point as Voyager, the Cubes would appear smaller, not larger, only further supporting my point.

The distances and angles are established by the weapons fire, with that, we can judge their relative sizes without a third object of known size! With the Enterprise having a known size, and Voyager having a known size, the proposition that the Cube from J-25 and the Cubes from Endgame are of different sizes can be definitively answered by the onscreen evidence.

Compare, then, the size of the Cube directly to Port of Voyager later in the video here. It is also firing on Voyager, giving a very good idea of how far away from Voyager the Cube is, as well as what angle they are relative to each other. If you pause the video at 1:02, with the Borg beam connecting the 344.5 meter Voyager and the Cube, and compare the relative sizes to the J-25 Cube and the 641 meter Enterprise here, the size differential between the Cube from J-25 (and thus, by canon dialogue, the Cube from Wolf 359), and the Cubes from Voyager is obvious.

As to your point about dramatic effect, I agree, but that would just mean that the sizes of Borg Cubes in on-screen Canon will have more than one size, but in fact, a whole ranges of sizes, which I am perfectly willing to accept. I'm not putting forward -two sizes of Cube-, I'm rejecting that there is -just the one-, based on the canon evidence, from shots onscreen.
  • Can we get an exact measurement of the Cubes from Endgame? No.
  • Can we establish that all the Cubes from Voyager are themselves at least of the same size, regardless of their comparison to the Cube from J-25? No.
  • Can we establish if the Cubes from Endgame are different than the Cube from J-25? Yes.
  • Can we establish that the Cubes from Endgame are smaller than the Cube from J-25? Yes.
Lt. Commander
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# 43
01-28-2011, 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
Compare, then, the size of the Cube directly to Port of Voyager later in the video here. It is also firing on Voyager, giving a very good idea of how far away from Voyager the Cube is, as well as what angle they are relative to each other. If you pause the video at 1:02, with the Borg beam connecting the 344.5 meter Voyager and the Cube, and compare the relative sizes to the J-25 Cube and the 641 meter Enterprise here, the size differential between the Cube from J-25 (and thus, by canon dialogue, the Cube from Wolf 359), and the Cubes from Voyager is obvious.
Looking at the evidence you present there I am actually pursuaded that you are correct on the statement that smaller cubes were used in Voyager, especially in that space sequence. The beam hits the dorsal centre of the saucer section, meaning that the cube cannot be beneath Voyager's plain of flight. At 1:03 to 1:04 in the clip the angle of the beams would suggest that Voyager is actually passing it on an equal plain at an extremely close range.
However the size of the chasing cube in the shot where the Borg break off the attack would appear to be approximately equal to the TNG ones, this would suggest a variance in cube size rather than an absolute shrinking of the cube standard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
As to your point about dramatic effect, I agree, but that would just mean that the sizes of Borg Cubes in on-screen Canon will have more than one size, but in fact, a whole ranges of sizes, which I am perfectly willing to accept. I'm not putting forward -two sizes of Cube-, I'm rejecting that there is -just the one-, based on the canon evidence, from shots onscreen.
  • Can we get an exact measurement of the Cubes from Endgame? No.
  • Can we establish that all the Cubes from Voyager are themselves at least of the same size, regardless of their comparison to the Cube from J-25? No.
  • Can we establish if the Cubes from Endgame are different than the Cube from J-25? Yes.
  • Can we establish that the Cubes from Endgame are smaller than the Cube from J-25? Yes.
I think we're playing a dangerous game of absolutes here:
  • Can we get an exact measurement of the Cubes from Endgame? No.
  • Can we establish that all the Cubes from Voyager are themselves at least of the same size, regardless of their comparison to the Cube from J-25? No. Although this does not provide an absolute for all cubes seen the the franchise.
  • Can we establish if the Cubes from Endgame are different than the Cube from J-25? Yes, for some of the examples shown in that episode.
  • Can we establish that the Cubes from Endgame are smaller than the Cube from J-25? Yes, for some of the examples shown in that episode.

I'm always cautious about the mindset of assuming that what is seen on screen in Star Trek must be taken as fact, and therefore canon, especially after CGI ships came into use during the later seasons of DS9. As was demonstrated in DS9, ships had a habit of yoyo dieting at a director's whim in order to provide a preferred image, this could quite easily be the case with the Borg cubes under debate.
Ultimately however, we must rememer that this is Science Fiction the ships seen on screen are there to help tell a story, not to act as examples of Technical Manuals in action. Whether a Borg cube is 1km or 9km across is irrelevent if it provides imagery that helps the drama of the story along. The story is all that is important, not whether the ship in one scene is the same size as a similar one has been stated to be in an earlier episode. If people can't accept that then they have, in my opinion, missed the point of Star trek.
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# 44
01-28-2011, 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KnightErrant View Post
Looking at the evidence you present there I am actually persuaded that you are correct on the statement that smaller cubes were used in Voyager, especially in that space sequence. The beam hits the dorsal centre of the saucer section, meaning that the cube cannot be beneath Voyager's plain of flight. At 1:03 to 1:04 in the clip the angle of the beams would suggest that Voyager is actually passing it on an equal plain at an extremely close range.
However the size of the chasing cube in the shot where the Borg break off the attack would appear to be approximately equal to the TNG ones, this would suggest a variance in cube size rather than an absolute shrinking of the cube standard.


I think we're playing a dangerous game of absolutes here:
  • Can we get an exact measurement of the Cubes from Endgame? No.
  • Can we establish that all the Cubes from Voyager are themselves at least of the same size, regardless of their comparison to the Cube from J-25? No. Although this does not provide an absolute for all cubes seen the the franchise.
  • Can we establish if the Cubes from Endgame are different than the Cube from J-25? Yes, for some of the examples shown in that episode.
  • Can we establish that the Cubes from Endgame are smaller than the Cube from J-25? Yes, for some of the examples shown in that episode.

I'm always cautious about the mindset of assuming that what is seen on screen in Star Trek must be taken as fact, and therefore canon, especially after CGI ships came into use during the later seasons of DS9. As was demonstrated in DS9, ships had a habit of yoyo dieting at a director's whim in order to provide a preferred image, this could quite easily be the case with the Borg cubes under debate.
Ultimately however, we must rememer that this is Science Fiction the ships seen on screen are there to help tell a story, not to act as examples of Technical Manuals in action. Whether a Borg cube is 1km or 9km across is irrelevent if it provides imagery that helps the drama of the story along. The story is all that is important, not whether the ship in one scene is the same size as a similar one has been stated to be in an earlier episode. If people can't accept that then they have, in my opinion, missed the point of Star trek.
That's all I've been saying all along, that there is more than the one size of Cube in Star Trek. You can see where I got frustrated with Doogie, who didn't seem to bother actually looking at, much less considering the evidence.

But when it comes to canon concerns, as I understand it, what is seen and said on screen is canon (even if it contradicts earlier canon), what comes from official comics, books, production notes, and video games is soft canon, and everything else (fan-fiction, fan hypotheses, etc) is non-canon.

And, while I do consider myself a bit of a canon purist, I understand and accept that some things have to be bent and other broken for the sake of enjoyable game play in STO. However, the size of Borg Cubes is not one of them. So my early suggestion that got this whole ball of wax rolling still stands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
I have repeatedly said the Borg need to be buffed, and I stand by it.

With the addition of the Borg set, the smallest group of Borg we see should be three partially assimilated (Borg Set outfitted) ships, Fed, KDF, Cardassian, a random assortment would do nicely.

The second level should be a Borg probe, upgraded to roughly the same difficulty of the current Borg Spheres, accompanied by several partially assimilated ships. (I should have also added that it should be redone to look more like this)

The third level should be a Borg Sphere, upgrades to the level of the current Borg Cubes.

The Borg Cubes should have the firepower and resilience of the current Borg Tactical Cube. (These would appear like all the non-tactical Cubes in the game now, the smaller Cubes from Voyager)

The Borg Tactical Cube should have armor and shield resistances and weapons buffs over and beyond their current level.

The sixth, and final Borg ship we see in any kind of commonality should be what I think of as the "Assimilation Cube" the hulking, uber-powerful Cubes that they sent to assimilate Earth each time. twice as tall, wide, and thick as the Borg cubes we're dealing with now, with 8 times the mass. It should be reserved for a Crystalline Entity-type Fleet Action. (While the exact size increase of the Cube is up for debate, that it should get one is now established)

Each level should be able to resist and adapt to the conditions they encounter.

Gaining 1% resistance to each weapon type used against it every ten seconds, with different plateaus for each level. The partially assimilated ships plateau at 10%, Probes at 20%, Spheres at 30%, Cubes at 40%, Tactical cubes at 50%, and Assimilation Cubes at 60%.
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# 45
01-28-2011, 04:41 PM
[quote=Dimitris_Botonis]Borg should be terrifying. A Borg cube is something that a starship can't take on alone. Yet, we routinely take on Borg during single-player missions. On ground missions, Borg are dispatched like every other race.[quote]

Tackle the Borg cube a the start of Infected with one ship and let me know how you get on

I do understand what your saying tho, maybe the cubes could be a little tougher. I remember in Star trek Legacy the Tactical cube at the end has drone spheres that we had to destry to weaken it. One gave a power boost to the cube, another sheilds and another somethign else.

Not sure if something like that would work in STO tho, but was good in Legacy.,
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
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# 46
01-30-2011, 03:09 PM
I agree completely with the OP. A Borg cube should be a more fearsome opponent.

A Borg cube should not be the battleship at the end of a "kill five enemies" exploration mission. Invent a "tactical sphere" or some such to take that pseudo-boss role.

A cube should be an opponent for DSEs and a boss for STFs. It should have absurd stats, like half a million hit points and 70,000 crew to repair damage. It should have a special version of beam:fire at will with no cooldown so it can constantly engage multiple starships.

It should be even bigger (canon size is 28 cubic kilometers, or a little over 3km per side). It should be all black and dark, industrial like in TNG, not glowy green colorful like Voyager made it.

And one of these should randomly attack Earth every 3-6 months. Just to give us something totally awesome to experience.

Anyway, that's my 2 EC.
Lt. Commander
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# 47
02-06-2011, 10:10 PM
I found an interesting post by a dev that I believe relates to the Borg-cube size issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dstahl View Post
this is the most likely cause - "props" are often scaled to look correct for the static location they are placed and can vary in size based on how they "look" in the shot.

the ship team does a very diligent job of check actual flyable ship scales against reference when making a ship model - but keep in mind - we sometimes have to adjust for playability. (and as others noted, sometimes the TV show did the same thing in order to make things more visually interesting).

This is one reason why our scale of DS9 is not exactly accurate against some of our ships. We scaled DS9 to many sizes until we internally agreed on a scale we liked. A side by side comparison of the TV cells will not be the same - but we feel that DS9 "Feels" right when you fly up to it in our game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic View Post
That's You can see where I got frustrated with Doogie, who didn't seem to bother actually looking at, much less considering the evidence.
I bothered to look at the evidence. You had nothing compelling to show me but a lack of understanding of how camera angels work and how Artistic directors will change things up to fit the story.
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# 48
02-07-2011, 12:42 AM
I would like to calmly suggest that perhaps arguing over show metrics and cube size distracts from the OP's point?

In regards to that original point ... meh.

To me, the Borg are a spent force. Are they dangerous, of course. Should a single ship be able to take down a cube? No. But then we get entangled in the reality that each and every captain playing the game is flying around in a ship that reassembles itself after destruction, that slaughters hundreds of enemies, and are such Mary Sues as to make Kirk look akin to Harry Mudd.

Arguing about the relative difficulty of a Cube and demanding Borg require groups of players to defeat them is one of those things that leads to a zero-sum for some people. The first time I managed to take out a Borg cube, it was very , very close. I was playing on Elite and I had 9% hull left and got lucky with a critical.

If you want to spice up Borg missions, have Cube appearances synch up with NPC ships fighting them or the like, to preserve the illusion of "power".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 49
02-07-2011, 06:41 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doogie
I bothered to look at the evidence. You had nothing compelling to show me but a lack of understanding of how camera angels work and how Artistic directors will change things up to fit the story.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katic
As to your point about dramatic effect, I agree, but that would just mean that the sizes of Borg Cubes in on-screen Canon will have more than one size, but in fact, a whole ranges of sizes, which I am perfectly willing to accept. I'm not putting forward -two sizes of Cube-, I'm rejecting that there is -just the one-, based on the canon evidence, from shots onscreen.
What is seen on-screen is canon, in-universe canon is what I refer to. Again, it doesn't matter if we know why they were different sizes on screen, all that matters is that they were.
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# 50
02-07-2011, 08:12 AM
I believe discussing "canon sizes" is a difficult thing because they had a lot of issues to keep up constant sizes in the show.

The more improtant thing is, in my opinion, that the Borg do not feel as dangerous in space as they should.

I have to mention that I thing they are prety well done on ground. I dont like the fact that they are using energy weapons there (the fact that they DIDNT use those on the show was what made them creepy, they just used guns in descent and that where seperatet Borg), but for the rest they ARE well done. Remember that a singel drone never was such a threat, the almost unlimitet NUMBER of drones was what made them scary.

In space I agree, they feel very very wrong. The OP is right, a SINGEL ship shouldnt be able to take out a Cube.
Even with "more advanced technology". Remember that a cube didnt take a scratch from fighting and destroying !!30!! ships at Wolf 359, and we still use basicly the same ship classes.
So if 5 ships manage to take out a cube in an STF that seems a fitting comitment to the "advanced technology", but not ONE ship.

So to accomplish that seems easy to me; i suggestet that before: Just add another "frigatte" replacement and move every ship one degree up; means something new (Daimonds for example) should replace probes, probes replace Spheres, Spheres should replace "normal" Cubes and normal Cubes should replace Tactical Cubes. The Tactical cube could be, like some suggestet, a new fleet action like the crystalline entity.

A cube should be something rare and scary, not something you meet every day.
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