Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Title = General
01-24-2011, 07:26 PM
Can I please get a title that is just "General" not Brigadier, Major, or Lt. General, just General. I know that General is supposed to be the 56-60 ranks, but seriously can we just get a plain General title. Likewise how about a simple Admiral title for the Fed side?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
01-25-2011, 06:43 AM
Hmm, if the General is for the 56-60 ranks, can't you wait until you get it? I understand the appeal but ... it would be similar to claiming the "Commander" title even though you're just a LtCdr. You can still have your subordinates simply call you "General", anyways.*

For the Feds, however, I do think that there should just be "Rear Admiral" for both RALH/RAUH. The better option, of course, would be to remove RALH/RAUH altogether and just take Commodore for the Lower Half. :p

*: As a sidenote, I find it slightly odd that the Klingon Empire absolutely has to use the same number of ranks as Starfleet. The KDF isn't as excessively organized and structured. I would imagine that the Klingons need as little as 5 officer ranks: Lieutenant, Commander, Captain, Brigadier, General. Everything else is related to post instead of rank. But that's just my perception of Klingon culture, of course. I really don't see them having thousands of ranks. That's more a Romulan thing to do.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
01-25-2011, 08:41 AM
I must say I find the current Klingon rank-structure in this game odd:
It uses naval terms for most ranks but then has a "General" as a rank for the higher-ups like in an Army.
The only exception to the use of the term "General" in canon Trek was Admiral Krell in "Enterprise", all the others were Generals, most notably of course Generals Chang and Martok.
Brigadier Kerla is an example of another typical Army rank in the Klingon command structure.

And it seems like it was orignially intended to be an army structure when you think about it:
In TNG "A Matter of Honor" Lt. Klaag served a second Officer after Riker and according to various books continued to serve as first officer after Riker left.
There is also no mention that there was a first officer that had transferred off for the duration of the exchange so it makes sense that Klaag was also first officer before Riker came aboard, which would also explain his animousity even better...getting replaced by some stranger for an exchange program would probably tick me off too.

Army ranks from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_ranks

Marshal
General
Brigadier
Colonel
Lt. Colonel
Major / Commandant
Captain
Lieutenant
2nd Lieutenant
Officer Cadet

It also makes a lot of sense to me since unlike Starfleet (Kirk called it a "combined service" in "Tomorrow is Yesterday") which is based on naval traditions, the Klingons seem to have simply extended their Army with its traditions into space.
Since they are well known for their history of ground wars and their continued preference of personal combat it seems like it's still very much a typical ground army that simply operates in space, or are maybe a little like an airforce.
Airforces of several nations were orignially part of their armies and in cases like the German Army continue to have ranks that are identical to those of the Army due to their heritage.
In many nations armies/airforces they are at least very much alike.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_a...orces_Officers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranks_a...rmies_Officers

It seems like the KDF is either a "space-army" or a "space-airforce", feels more like army that airforce to me while Starfllet is more akin to a "space navy" and this should be reflected in their rank structure.
So maybe it would be an interesting change if the Klingons were given an entirely new ranking system that reflects their nature much better; a typical Army structure.
I am well aware that Kurn introduced himself as "Rank: Commander", but this might have been due to the wish or need to make his rank "compatible" with naval terms.
NATO also has a list that explains which rank corresponds to which rank in another system.

It's just an idea, but I think it would be an intersting change and would also allow each faction to have its own unique ranking system, the Romulans will no doubt have one where the rank of "Commander" corresponds to the rank of "Captain" in Starfleet, why not give the Klingons a "Colonel" at that rank?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
01-25-2011, 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
the Klingons seem to have simply extended their Army with its traditions into space.
This is how I always understood it as well. It would fit their evolution of warfare - as they just had ground forces at the start and then gained premature access to space flight with the capture of several Hurq warships left behind by the invasion force they had thrown off their homeworld. They simply never bothered to develop a proper second service, instead hopping right into the ships and setting off to plunder nearby systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
So maybe it would be an interesting change if the Klingons were given an entirely new ranking system that reflects their nature much better; a typical Army structure.
I disagree - as this "typical Army structure" is just an Earth hierarchy put over an alien culture. It's bad enough that we already have Starfleet switching from Commodore to RALH/RAUH just because a single real world military did this in the past few years; I don't think we need to expand these shenanigans to other species.

Klingon Captains have always been called Captain, and to change this to Colonel just because some(!) Earth ground armies have it that way would not only go against what we have seen on screen, it would also be too strong a connection to contemporary human habits. Not to mention that you would then have the weird case of Klingon Captains suddenly not being captains of the ship but just its first officer?

On that note it should probably be pointed out that all these ranks are merely translations from the Klingon original. Klingons do not call these ranks with the human term we use here, so this could serve to "explain away" what we perceive as a weird mix between army and navy ranks. The Klingons don't know any difference anyways.

By the way, I actually did think about putting the Colonel between the Captain and the Brigadier, to go with some sort of "hybrid system" like the one from B5 and because this would allow us to get rid of the over 9000 different ranks of "General" (simultaneously disconnecting the General from Brigadier, as Kerla did not introduce himself as a General either).
I wish I had some idea what to do with the "Lieutenant General", but even though I do belive it does not sound very elegant I just don't have a clue what else might fit.

Just my thoughts on the entire subject, of course. In general (pun not intended :p) I think STO's Klingon rank system is way too "bloated" for their reverance of simplicity regarding military matters.
I would prefer if we would be able to "purge" the system of seemingly redundant ranks and just let some ranks stretch over several tiers, but ... oh well, one can dream.

Oh! This reminds me of the highest rank again. According to the old chart, we're supposed to get "Dahar Master" - this really vexes me, considering that this was never a military rank but "just" a social title, entirely disconnected from the rank hierarchy. I keep thinking something archaic like "High General" would be far more suitable, especially since it'd be a nice mirror to the Federation equivalent of "Fleet Admiral".
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
01-25-2011, 11:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Hmm, if the General is for the 56-60 ranks, can't you wait until you get it? I understand the appeal but ... it would be similar to claiming the "Commander" title even though you're just a LtCdr. You can still have your subordinates simply call you "General", anyways.*
Waiting really depends on how far off we are from the level increase. I have a feeling it might accompany the Romulan expansion, so very possibly a year + off from that. Currently I have 4 Lt. Generals and I think it be nice to just simplify it to General, as in 90% of all situations a person with the rank of X General (where X equals a modifier like Major or Lt.) they would be addressed as General. The same goes for Admiral.

As for the current and proposed KDF rank structure (Dahar Master? Really?) Please don't get me started
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
01-25-2011, 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
This is how I always understood it as well. It would fit their evolution of warfare - as they just had ground forces at the start and then gained premature access to space flight with the capture of several Hurq warships left behind by the invasion force they had thrown off their homeworld. They simply never bothered to develop a proper second service, instead hopping right into the ships and setting off to plunder nearby systems.
"Proper secondary service"?
What's proper?
I think I'll have to return your shenanigans and call shenanigans on "proper service" since that's a very human point of view.:p

The reason why there are such great differences on earth between army and navy is usually because they existed for so many centuries in parallel and have their own traditions.
Assuming the Klingons were never that interested in naval warfare (I can't find anything on that right no, neither for or against) there would be no parallel evolution and of course only one type of structure to "choose" from when they went into space.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I disagree - as this "typical Army structure" is just an Earth hierarchy put over an alien culture. It's bad enough that we already have Starfleet switching from Commodore to RALH/RAUH just because a single real world military did this in the past few years; I don't think we need to expand these shenanigans to other species.

Klingon Captains have always been called Captain, and to change this to Colonel just because some(!) Earth ground armies have it that way would not only go against what we have seen on screen, it would also be too strong a connection to contemporary human habits. Not to mention that you would then have the weird case of Klingon Captains suddenly not being captains of the ship but just its first officer?

On that note it should probably be pointed out that all these ranks are merely translations from the Klingon original. Klingons do not call these ranks with the human term we use here, so this could serve to "explain away" what we perceive as a weird mix between army and navy ranks. The Klingons don't know any difference anyways.

By the way, I actually did think about putting the Colonel between the Captain and the Brigadier, to go with some sort of "hybrid system" like the one from B5 and because this would allow us to get rid of the over 9000 different ranks of "General" (simultaneously disconnecting the General from Brigadier, as Kerla did not introduce himself as a General either).
I wish I had some idea what to do with the "Lieutenant General", but even though I do belive it does not sound very elegant I just don't have a clue what else might fit.
We'd have to call them something and an Army-style translation from whatver the Klingon names are sounds more fitting than some weird fantasy structure that someone came up with.
It would also most likely confuse people so something everyone can google is probably the easiest way to not push casual gamers away from the Klingons even more.

The B5 ranking system is also quite inconsistent in some places.
The unknown agent from "And the Sky Full of Stars" said that Sinclair had had, until the Battle of the Line, a very promising carreer and that there already bets out he'd make Admiral some day.
This is about just a anomalous for B5's Earthforce as Admiral Krell is for the Klingons.

And unless you want something like "Captain Mk1" and "Captain Mk2" for various ranks, something like Captain, Major, Colonel sounds much better.
Besides, "Captain" is not only a designation of a rank but of a function as you well know.
Additionally the rank of "Captain" is included in an army structure, only at another place.
So from an RP standpoint there would be no problem with the designation Captain since you can choose your title when you edit your character.
Also in real-world navies you don't need to be a captain to have your own command, though probably end up with a smaller ship.
Something similar is probably true for the Klingons where a promotion might not only mean a difference in rank but also in the kind of ship you're in command of, in this regard STO is not that different from the real world.

As for the mix-up, particularly the Admiral in "Enterprise" I'd say it's the old problem of an author-mistake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Just my thoughts on the entire subject, of course. In general (pun not intended :p) I think STO's Klingon rank system is way too "bloated" for their reverance of simplicity regarding military matters.
I would prefer if we would be able to "purge" the system of seemingly redundant ranks and just let some ranks stretch over several tiers, but ... oh well, one can dream.
Well, I'm not convinced the Klingons would have a very loose struture, remember in "Soldiers of the Empire" Dax said "The social and military hirarchy of a Klingon vessel is very strictly enforced."
And unlike the so-called "Vulcan Intelligence" on Klingons that is about as precise using a broken flashlight as a sniper rifle, I think she knows what she's talking about.
So it feels a lot like there is more to it than meets the eye and they're actually a bit more into ranks than you might expect from, as O'Brien called them, "Ancient Sea Pirates".

And dreaming is important, I had to fight on more than one occasion not to lose that ability or have it taken away from me by various circumstances.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Oh! This reminds me of the highest rank again. According to the old chart, we're supposed to get "Dahar Master" - this really vexes me, considering that this was never a military rank but "just" a social title, entirely disconnected from the rank hierarchy. I keep thinking something archaic like "High General" would be far more suitable, especially since it'd be a nice mirror to the Federation equivalent of "Fleet Admiral".
Yep, Dahar Master sounds to me like a Dan in some forms of Martial Arts and not like a Military rank.
If it were something like a Marshall he could have probably gotten a command far more easily.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
01-25-2011, 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
I think I'll have to return your shenanigans and call shenanigans on "proper service" since that's a very human point of view.:p
Of course it is - I was, after all, comparing the Klingon military to the contemporary Earth model. :p

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
We'd have to call them something and an Army-style translation from whatver the Klingon names are sounds more fitting than some weird fantasy structure that someone came up with.
Why does it have to be the Army, then? The fact is that KDF warriors function as both army and navy. There is no ingrained difference like in modern real world militaries, and Klingon Generals likely command ground assaults just as often as they lead fleets of spaceships. The line between his flagship being an oversized troop transport or a fleet command vessel can become blurred easily. The only thing that seems clear is that a ship's captain can just as well be called Captain as a rank instead of creating the irritation I mentioned earlier (with the Klingon Captain then not being captain of the ship).

Interestingly, the same idea existed in the old Roman Empire, where you had the ship's crew organized in army ranks (one centuria per vessel led by a Centurion), but the command officers possessing specialized navy ranks (Triarch for trireme COs, and Nauarchs as squadron commanders). With this real world example of dual ranks within the same force, perhaps the idea of the same thing existing in the KDF may feel less strange.

In any way, I do think the rank distribution of army (line) -> navy (officers) -> army (flag officers) is quite canon, so I am more trying to provide a likely explanation rather than defending it, as I don't see that it would really be called into question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
The B5 ranking system is also quite inconsistent in some places. The unknown agent from "And the Sky Full of Stars" said that Sinclair had had, until the Battle of the Line, a very promising carreer and that there already bets out he'd make Admiral some day. This is about just a anomalous for B5's Earthforce as Admiral Krell is for the Klingons.
The wikipedia article delivers a rather fitting explanation for this, though I am unsure how "solid" it is. Regardless of a supposed inconsistency, it employed the same idea as the Klingon one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
And unless you want something like "Captain Mk1" and "Captain Mk2" for various ranks [...]
Well, the Feds do it for the Rear Admiral already.

Would it really be that bad when it's just a little "tier number" on your paperdoll and everyone would still just refer to you as "Captain", without any additional suff- or prefixes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
So from an RP standpoint there would be no problem with the designation Captain since you can choose your title when you edit your character.
Klingon Captains have always been in command of a ship. I really see no need to change this. If you differentiate between two types of captains in the same hierarchy (with the rank being lower than the title!) things will really just get confusing for everyone. Including the characters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Well, I'm not convinced the Klingons would have a very loose struture, remember in "Soldiers of the Empire" Dax said "The social and military hirarchy of a Klingon vessel is very strictly enforced."
Naturally, but the same can be said about the Vikings or the Samurai (which are, depending on the author, often compared to the Klingons) - and those did not have as many ranks each as well. A strictly enforced hierarchy does not mean that it has to be complex (more true for Vikings than Samurai, ofc). Just that it's an extremely important part of their life.

We've seen quite a lot about Klingon hierarchy throughout the different shows by now, but never a number coming close to what Starfleet has. And why would you need to split up the rank of General into so many sub-ranks? It's simply not necessary, thanks to how tightly the KDF is interlinked with the High Council. Considering the extreme differences in military strength between the different Houses it stands to reason that some sort of dogma regarding unit sizes is simply not possible. The Klingon Empire is a feudal realm, and I submit that its military is organized in the same way. Look at medieval Earth armies and you probably have a good impression about how the Klingons wage their wars. Which, again, fits their history of being catapulted from feudal into space age in a single night.

All of the above is merely my personal conclusion, of course. Sadly, unlike for Star Wars, very little definite official information exists on subjects such as these, so we are left to make our own conclusions.
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