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Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
01-23-2011, 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Yeah, right, with the Federation-friendly traitors having access to 80 times the content of the KDF. I wonder how the game would end up like?!

I say keep it limited to Gamma Orionis. The ongoing conflict is necessary to give PvP and a good chunk of UFP content meaning. An Open PvP sector is being thought about by the devs, by the way.
Well, first of all the idea predates the revelation that there will most likely never be a propler Klingon Campaign and the idea was to give the Klingons two alternatives.
Second: The Federation "The Kuvah'Magh" mission clearly shows that there are still Klingons who are interested in ending this war, aside from the fact that it was a dunb throwback into the 1960's like whenever people run out of ideas in Star Trek it's always a good idea to throw in a few evil Klingons.
Third when proposing ideas like these makes me a traitor well then I'd say so long and thanks for the fish, certainly a good reason not to sopport this faction any longer, thank you very much.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
01-23-2011, 12:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by N_Danger
Well there was that "little" raid on the Mars Shipyards too.
I don't remember, but sadly I don't think the Fed side of the game has any mention of that one. It would be nice if the instances like these at least get mentioned - perhaps by NPC's to the other side.

Walking around ESD hearing - "Did you hear about Klingon raid on the Mars Shipyards?" Or on Qo'noS "Did you hear about the failure at Star base 24? Many a great warrior died with honor that day."
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
01-23-2011, 02:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Well, first of all the idea predates the revelation that there will most likely never be a propler Klingon Campaign and the idea was to give the Klingons two alternatives. [...]
What revelation? Last I heard from dstahl was actually the exact opposite - that they intend to kick the war back into action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Second: The Federation "The Kuvah'Magh" mission clearly shows that there are still Klingons who are interested in ending this war [...]
Of course there are those exceptions. I'm just saying that player character content should be "mainstream". Or, the other alternative, at least be "unified" (as in: forcing every Klingon player to be part of this rather than splitting the already small playerbase in two).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Third when proposing ideas like these makes me a traitor [...]
I thought it was clear that this was directed at characters betraying the Empire by helping the Federation - and not very serious, anyways. You need to relax a bit.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
01-24-2011, 01:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
What revelation? Last I heard from dstahl was actually the exact opposite - that they intend to kick the war back into action.
Campaign as in something PvE story-driven like we have on the Federation side, I was not referring to RvR.

"[...]the KDF will never have as many episodes as the Feds in the short term[...]"

http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...&postcount=658

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Of course there are those exceptions. I'm just saying that player character content should be "mainstream". Or, the other alternative, at least be "unified" (as in: forcing every Klingon player to be part of this rather than splitting the already small playerbase in two).
I thought it was clear that this was directed at characters betraying the Empire by helping the Federation - and not very serious, anyways. You need to relax a bit.
The characters would not care if there was content, the players do.
Which means if the traitors you mentioned have more content, those would be the players not the characters.
So either you made it very unclear unintentionally or you originally had something else in mind.
Besides, it's very unlikely that most players would only make one character or more than one character only to have them all on the same side and I'm not sure why this would fracture the Klingons even further because in the current PvP environment it would make no actual difference as I pointed out.
And even if it did, when we're fighting one another we're still all warriors, all Klingons as Kurn put it in "Redemption"pt2.

And throwing the word traitor around in a Klingon forum is a serious accusation when you stop to think about it.
And that particular Klingon who fought B'vat did so because B'vat had used treachery and took hostages, all very dishonorable actions.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
01-24-2011, 08:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Campaign as in something PvE story-driven like we have on the Federation side, I was not referring to RvR.
"[...]the KDF will never have as many episodes as the Feds in the short term[...]"
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...&postcount=658
I was not referring to RvR either.

"The team is super excited to continue bringing these new stories into the game as well as continuing the story we start with the Undine/Borg/Fek'ihri/Iconians and the war between the Fed/KLg."
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...42&postcount=2

"We do want to introduce conflict between our main factions in future episodes."
"We really need to go back and tell the story of why the KDF and FED are at war and build some content around that whole neutral zone conflict. I'm not sure how fast we'll be able to make this (we've been talking about it for a while) but I'm hopeful that once UGC is available - the constant content pressure will be off my team enough that we can take a breather and work on something like this."
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...9&postcount=25

"What we really need to do is focus on the entire purpose we set the game to be in a time when the Federation and Klingon faction is at war and develop that storyline and make it an integral part of the game. Right now it is a little bit of everything and it needs focus."
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...36#post2915436

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
The characters would not care if there was content, the players do.
You are confusing content with the ongoing war. Content can be the KvF war just as much as it can be anything else. Will we ever have as much content as the Federation? No. But does this mean that we have to give up being our own faction and instead become a subfaction of the Feds, leeching off their content? I say no to that, too. Aside from taking away the status of Klingons as their own faction with their own politics, this would also mean even less Klingon-specific content, as the devs would just point us to UFP stuff.

And this is not even going into what future factions such as the Romulans would have to expect from such a development. This would really diminish every non-Starfleet character to be an "addon" to the Federation experience like in the TV series, and turn STO into a Starfleet game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
The characters would not care if there was content, the players do. Which means if the traitors you mentioned have more content, those would be the players not the characters.
Huh? I don't care for any out-of-character reasons when I am talking about the characters. Someone fighting against the Empire is someone fighting against the Empire, and he would likely have his own reasons to do so - even if his player did not care to provide them, I will keep calling such characters out for what they are.

As for their players, I understand the concern about the amount of content, but at the same time I am somewhat saddened that they would surrender the chances the current political situation gives us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Besides, it's very unlikely that most players would only make one character or more than one character only to have them all on the same side and I'm not sure why this would fracture the Klingons even further because in the current PvP environment it would make no actual difference as I pointed out.
Well, for starters, not every character would (or should) even get to select whether he or she joins this Federation alliance, as the Orion Syndicate is an entity hunted by Starfleet, so Orions and Feds working together is a no-go, and Nausicaans are just as likely to be shunned as the Federation does not employ or support mercenaries. Gorn on the other hand would be far more likely to run over to the Feds as a whole in order to free their government from Klingon rule and defend their regained sovereignty.

As for the question of content itself, why would anyone except roleplayers roll a character for the sub-faction which has access to everything the other side gets minus the Fed-content? It's like you're being offered free refills for your drink and you refuse even whilst still being thirsty after the one cup you got.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
And throwing the word traitor around in a Klingon forum is a serious accusation when you stop to think about it.
As serious as suggesting to work with an enemy of the Empire, I would think.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
01-24-2011, 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
I was not referring to RvR either.

"The team is super excited to continue bringing these new stories into the game as well as continuing the story we start with the Undine/Borg/Fek'ihri/Iconians and the war between the Fed/KLg."
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...42&postcount=2

"We do want to introduce conflict between our main factions in future episodes."
"We really need to go back and tell the story of why the KDF and FED are at war and build some content around that whole neutral zone conflict. I'm not sure how fast we'll be able to make this (we've been talking about it for a while) but I'm hopeful that once UGC is available - the constant content pressure will be off my team enough that we can take a breather and work on something like this."
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...9&postcount=25

"What we really need to do is focus on the entire purpose we set the game to be in a time when the Federation and Klingon faction is at war and develop that storyline and make it an integral part of the game. Right now it is a little bit of everything and it needs focus."
http://forums.startrekonline.com/sho...36#post2915436

You are confusing content with the ongoing war. Content can be the KvF war just as much as it can be anything else. Will we ever have as much content as the Federation? No. But does this mean that we have to give up being our own faction and instead become a subfaction of the Feds, leeching off their content? I say no to that, too. Aside from taking away the status of Klingons as their own faction with their own politics, this would also mean even less Klingon-specific content, as the devs would just point us to UFP stuff.

Well when on the one had they say they want to make it a greater part of the game but on the other hand it is unlikely that the Klingons will get a large amount of PvE Episodes, the result is most likely that the Federation will get a lot of missions about that conflict and the Klingons will...not.

And this is not even going into what future factions such as the Romulans would have to expect from such a development. This would really diminish every non-Starfleet character to be an "addon" to the Federation experience like in the TV series, and turn STO into a Starfleet game.
As I recall noone propsed that the KDF should become the Vermiform appendix of the Federation, we already have thatis, it's called "Playable Federation Klingon".
But cooperation where it makes sense ouside of Gamma Orionis, for example in Cardassian Space kicking some True Way butt is not something beyond the Klingons, or saving DS9 from them.
The universe is not all black and white, there are grey areas where you fight alongside someone else when it makes sense.
This would be that actual difference, when a house sympathetic to the Federation sees there is another threat, a threat to both that house might take action despite the war.
Others would choose to ignore the problem saying it's not their business.
Can't you see the difference between cooperation and "fusion"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
Huh? I don't care for any out-of-character reasons when I am talking about the characters. Someone fighting against the Empire is someone fighting against the Empire, and he would likely have his own reasons to do so - even if his player did not care to provide them, I will keep calling such characters out for what they are.
Again, there seems to be a serious misunderstanding there.
You said traitors would have more content.
Those would not be the characters, those would be the players.
Only players can have content that they play with.
The content of a character would be his...internal organs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
As for their players, I understand the concern about the amount of content, but at the same time I am somewhat saddened that they would surrender the chances the current political situation gives us.

Well, for starters, not every character would (or should) even get to select whether he or she joins this Federation alliance, as the Orion Syndicate is an entity hunted by Starfleet, so Orions and Feds working together is a no-go, and Nausicaans are just as likely to be shunned as the Federation does not employ or support mercenaries. Gorn on the other hand would be far more likely to run over to the Feds as a whole in order to free their government from Klingon rule and defend their regained sovereignty.

As for the question of content itself, why would anyone except roleplayers roll a character for the sub-faction which has access to everything the other side gets minus the Fed-content? It's like you're being offered free refills for your drink and you refuse even whilst still being thirsty after the one cup you got.

As serious as suggesting to work with an enemy of the Empire, I would think.
What saddens me is that you call the actions of people like B'vat "mainstream" while you call people who would fight against dishonorable conduct "traitors".

As for the possible RP implications:
It seems that you can only imagine that there would only be people on the Klingon side who forget the deep connection between two allies that fought together for many years against a common foe.
As was seen in the Dominion War.
Klingons can have very long memories and remember who their freinds are.
Those warriors would not abandon their bonds, their friendships from those days.
And they would be torn between loyalty to their own people and loyalty to people they trust and respect and fought together with.
Which is not something I can say about the current chancellor who is still a dubious figure.
Those people would try to at the very least find ways to help their friends wherever they can despite difficult circumstances.

*EDIT*

Yes in some cases it would not make much sense:
Gorn might, so might Orions who are not alligned with the Syndicate.
Some Aliens, given the proper backstory might too
Nausicaans etc not so much.
In such cases it would certainly be preferable if they got their own little storyline where they defend their own people from an external threat, like Romulans trying to take an ally of the Klingons out of the equation, or the Borg, of the Breen raiding their space.
It wouls also make a lot more sense to have those missions than to have a Gorn in Gre'thor don't you think?
But I know this is impossible given what limited resources are available for such endeavors.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
01-24-2011, 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
As I recall noone propsed that the KDF should become the Vermiform appendix of the Federation [...]
But this is what this idea would lead to. I mean, come on, you've seen how STO development has progressed in the past year. How do you think a solution like this would be implemented? You'd have one group of Klingons limited to what they have now, and you'd have another group of Klingons limited to that and a number of unchanged Fed missions. The end result will inevitably be that "Fed-Klinks" will become more popular due to the additional content, and I just do not believe that things like these should influence a player's decision whether or not he'd have his character work for Starfleet if given the choice. You end up penalizing those players who would want their characters to stay loyal to the Chancellor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
But cooperation where it makes sense ouside of Gamma Orionis, for example in Cardassian Space kicking some True Way butt is not something beyond the Klingons, or saving DS9 from them. [...]
You mean in addition to the ongoing war? Of course, this is an option, but in that case the war really would become a joke. Players would alterate between helping Starfleet and fighting them from hour to hour. A total loss of consistency.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Again, there seems to be a serious misunderstanding there. You said traitors would have more content. Those would not be the characters, those would be the players.
Ah! Now I see what you mean. In that case I apologize, as it really was not meant towards the players. Yet you have to differentiate between the characters on some level, as every player has generally access to everything in STO. It is the characters that are limited due to their allegiance - currently, only Starfleet characters have access to Starfleet content, and only Klingon characters have access to Klingon content, even if you have a player having characters in both factions (like me).

I hope this clears it up and explains why I am referring to the characters, as only characters can betray their faction, not the players. Even if you feel a strong connection to it (for example I often say "we" when I am talking about the Klingon playerbase, even if only 50% of my characters are actually KDF).

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
What saddens me is that you call the actions of people like B'vat "mainstream" while you call people who would fight against dishonorable conduct "traitors".
By this I'm going by NPC comments (including the generic NPCs), storyline snippets and the faction explanation on the website. In my opinion this is the most accurate representation of the current mainstream Klingon mindset as we simply have no other indicators, aside from the exceptions you pointed out.

And honestly, it is easy to understand why the Klingons feel that way, if you combine their innate aggression and honor- / supremacy-concerned mindset with what happened during the past couple years in the Path to 2409. Relationships between the Federation and the Klingon Empire have deteriorated progressively, they didn't switch from "amicable" to "hostile" overnight.
I think Cryptic did a rather good job at explaining why things went how they did, and we've seen the Klingon Empire attack the Federation for far less and for way less important reasons in DS9.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
It seems that you can only imagine that there would only be people on the Klingon side who forget the deep connection between two allies that fought together for many years against a common foe. As was seen in the Dominion War. Klingons can have very long memories and remember who their freinds are.
There are also few Klingons who die of old age, and it is rather plausible that the majority of warriors in the KDF are ones who have not fought in the Dominion War whilst the new wave of young Klingons is eager to battle, finding far more excitement in the old stories about Klingon-Federation conflict than peace with a culture that does not understand the focal point of Klingon identity, whereas some old Klingons might simply relish a chance for honorable trial against someone they fought alongside once. That said, I greatly recommend this article for further explanation - an excerpt from a (sadly unreleased) Decipher RPG Sourcebook on the Klingon Empire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
Those people would try to at the very least find ways to help their friends wherever they can despite difficult circumstances.
Which is probably how you can explain the strong influx of Starfleet Klingon characters in STO. A House assisting Starfleet in a time of war and without approval from the High Council (as is the case for Omega Leonis), however, will soon find itself shamed and discommendated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
[...] so might Orions who are not alligned with the Syndicate.
I do not think there are Orions not aligned with the Syndicate. They have no reason not to, considering it is the single organization in the galaxy most suited to care for their physical and psychological needs (whilst embracing their culture and any personal skills) and Orions are basically born into a web of crime. Additionally, Orions keep a pretty strong enmity towards the Federation that has persisted for centuries due to Starfleet continuously locking down Syndicate operations and the UFP having basically taken over the majority of Orion-influenced space by means of diplomacy and trade agreements, throwing the Orions out of business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mister_dee
It wouls also make a lot more sense to have those missions than to have a Gorn in Gre'thor don't you think? But I know this is impossible given what limited resources are available for such endeavors.
Sadly! I have expressed a wish to see a few unique species-exclusive missions several times. Even a set of simple repeatable "grind" missions* a la Pi Canis would be something to set them apart content-wise, but I too do not see that happening.

*: Examples ->
Orions: smuggle weapons through a Starfleet blockade, kidnap civilians or soldiers for the slave market
Gorn: reclaim an ancestral world occupied by Federation "graverobbers" (archaeologists), advance onto an important UFP stronghold ("KDF meatshields")
Nausicaans: lay traps for civilian freighter convoys, raid a science outpost and steal some important tech plans or equipment
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