Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 1 Ship Fitting Change
01-23-2011, 07:44 PM
I had an idea while doing the Romulan Front missions:

Why have armor modifications take up engineering console slots?

--How about we just have an "armor slot" where we can toss in an armor plating module? Armor doesn't really seem to be something that would require a console to be installed on the bridge just for it.

Also, along with that, why not set up the HP so that you have shield, armor and hull, similar to EVE?

When we put armor on our ship, we end up with 3 types of defenses.

Shields: Obvious (same as they are now)

Armor: has resistances to damage (depending on the type of plating), and has hp (also depending on the type and Mk of plating

Hull: no resistances, unless ship is equipped with SIF abilities

---maybe split Hull into 2 parts:

Primary Hull: breach this and systems and/or abilities begin to go offline

Secondary Hull: ship loses atmosphere, and crew; opens up route for kill-shots

This was just an idea. I think it will make gameplay a bit more interesting. Feedback, please.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
01-23-2011, 08:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ_Reonic
I had an idea while doing the Romulan Front missions:

Why have armor modifications take up engineering console slots?
First off, remember that with one exception, starships having "armor" is a STO invention. Only Voyager was equipped with "armor * (Ablative Armor) that was nanite-based, thus required a module to monitor and replenish it. And that not until late in the show, too.

Thus the convention that armor requires a "console" slot. Remember, that "consoles" are representative of actual equipment being added to a ship, and since the "armors" are nanite-based, it makes sense in-game.

Quote:
--How about we just have an "armor slot" where we can toss in an armor plating module? Armor doesn't really seem to be something that would require a console to be installed on the bridge just for it.
Read above - "armor" is not a normal part of a starship in the ST universe. It's shields, then hull. Not to mention that the "armor" consoles increase resistances, and there is no actual armor "plate" that goes on the ship. Nanites covering the entire hull increase resistances to certain types of damage. Yes, the crew of Voyager learned a LOT about nanites and their applications - didn't exactly hurt to have Seven along, either - with her "up close 'n personal" experience of them

Quote:
Also, along with that, why not set up the HP so that you have shield, armor and hull, similar to EVE?
Read above. Also, this ain't EvE

Quote:
When we put armor on our ship, we end up with 3 types of defenses.

Shields: Obvious (same as they are now)

Armor: has resistances to damage (depending on the type of plating), and has hp (also depending on the type and Mk of plating

Hull: no resistances, unless ship is equipped with SIF abilities

---maybe split Hull into 2 parts:

Primary Hull: breach this and systems and/or abilities begin to go offline

Secondary Hull: ship loses atmosphere, and crew; opens up route for kill-shots

This was just an idea. I think it will make gameplay a bit more interesting. Feedback, please.

First off: ALL starships have a SIF - it's what prevents them from flying apart once thrust is applied. ST ships are beautiful, but fragile without the SIF. Take any Starfleet ship save the Defiant. Apply vector arithmetic to your chosen ship, figuring out where the center of mass is and where the thrust vectors are. Ignore what Sternbach said about "subspace" anything when it comes to this. Now, remove any SIFs from your calculations. You'll find out that most starships would rip themselves apart once thrust was applied due to the impulse engines' thrust vector not being anywhere near the center of mass.

Second - THERE IS NO ACTUAL ARMOR ATTACHED TO A STARSHIP - it's done through nanites infesting the hull. Remember, a nanite is a machine that is only slightly larger than a atom - so enough of them could fit BETWEEN the atoms of the hull and increase it's resistance to certain types of damage - which is exactly what the consoles do, as control stations for the nanite network.

Third - You have the functions of the two hulls reversed in your description. Primary hull (the saucer) is the "lifeboat", and holds the majority of the crew on anythign larger than a Defiant; the "secondary" or, as it's called, the ENGINEERING hull, contains the vast majority of the power systems, not to mention the warp core and the other components of the warp drive.

Basically, it's a nice idea but not applicable to the ST universe (and yes, you admitted where you lifted it from - both EvE and earlier fighter sims did what you want here, witht he difference that on those earlier sims you couldn't choose your weapons OR your armor),

If you can come up with a variant on this that would actually fit the universe it may actually be feasible; as it is night now putting in that system would be a immersion-breaker.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 3
01-23-2011, 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callasan View Post
First off, remember that with one exception, starships having "armor" is a STO invention. Only Voyager was equipped with "armor * (Ablative Armor) that was nanite-based, thus required a module to monitor and replenish it. And that not until late in the show, too.

Second - THERE IS NO ACTUAL ARMOR ATTACHED TO A STARSHIP - it's done through nanites infesting the hull. Remember, a nanite is a machine that is only slightly larger than a atom - so enough of them could fit BETWEEN the atoms of the hull and increase it's resistance to certain types of damage - which is exactly what the consoles do, as control stations for the nanite network.
Wrong. "Ablative Armor" is not equal to ablative generator.

Ablative Armor - physical pieces of armor plating added to certain ships (Defiant, Prometheus).

Ablative Generator - energy-based armor used at least by 2404 on a variety of ships.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that ablative armor was nanite-based.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 4
01-24-2011, 07:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callasan View Post
First off, remember that with one exception, starships having "armor" is a STO invention. Only Voyager was equipped with "armor * (Ablative Armor) that was nanite-based, thus required a module to monitor and replenish it. And that not until late in the show, too.

Thus the convention that armor requires a "console" slot. Remember, that "consoles" are representative of actual equipment being added to a ship, and since the "armors" are nanite-based, it makes sense in-game.



Read above - "armor" is not a normal part of a starship in the ST universe. It's shields, then hull. Not to mention that the "armor" consoles increase resistances, and there is no actual armor "plate" that goes on the ship. Nanites covering the entire hull increase resistances to certain types of damage. Yes, the crew of Voyager learned a LOT about nanites and their applications - didn't exactly hurt to have Seven along, either - with her "up close 'n personal" experience of them



Read above. Also, this ain't EvE




First off: ALL starships have a SIF - it's what prevents them from flying apart once thrust is applied. ST ships are beautiful, but fragile without the SIF. Take any Starfleet ship save the Defiant. Apply vector arithmetic to your chosen ship, figuring out where the center of mass is and where the thrust vectors are. Ignore what Sternbach said about "subspace" anything when it comes to this. Now, remove any SIFs from your calculations. You'll find out that most starships would rip themselves apart once thrust was applied due to the impulse engines' thrust vector not being anywhere near the center of mass.

Second - THERE IS NO ACTUAL ARMOR ATTACHED TO A STARSHIP - it's done through nanites infesting the hull. Remember, a nanite is a machine that is only slightly larger than a atom - so enough of them could fit BETWEEN the atoms of the hull and increase it's resistance to certain types of damage - which is exactly what the consoles do, as control stations for the nanite network.

Third - You have the functions of the two hulls reversed in your description. Primary hull (the saucer) is the "lifeboat", and holds the majority of the crew on anythign larger than a Defiant; the "secondary" or, as it's called, the ENGINEERING hull, contains the vast majority of the power systems, not to mention the warp core and the other components of the warp drive.

Basically, it's a nice idea but not applicable to the ST universe (and yes, you admitted where you lifted it from - both EvE and earlier fighter sims did what you want here, witht he difference that on those earlier sims you couldn't choose your weapons OR your armor),

If you can come up with a variant on this that would actually fit the universe it may actually be feasible; as it is night now putting in that system would be a immersion-breaker.
Dude, I know this ain't EVE, but I do know that some ships in Trek were equipped with ablative armor plates that would add extra protection to the hull, and allow a ship to remain in the fight longer. Voyager had the everything-proof ablative generators, that had to be physically activated. The method to put them in the universe is already here. Just move the armor plating consoles to their own slot, which will free up a console for engineering, and allow people to add that little bit of protection to their hulls, without sacrificing something else. Besides, If I'm not mistaken, Federation ships that were preparing for a war could be fitted with ablative armor plates, particularly over vital areas of the ship.

Also, it doesn't have to satisfy any particular criteria to "fit the trek universe". It would just have to make sense as something the Federation would do in wartime. Makes sense to me.

EDIT: also I'm not talking about Primary/Secondary Hulls in the sense of saucer and engineering, I'm talking about them from a practical standpoint. Watch Enterprise, particularly the episodes where they had to jettison hull plates for some reason or another. They didn't suddenly decompress a part of the ship, there was an inner hull, also called the pressure hull, or SECONDARY HULL.

The Primary Hull is the one everybody sees, it is the one where all the plating is fitted to, it's also the one that houses and protects certain nonessential systems. When it is breached, damage occurs to certain systems, but as long as the secondary hull is not breached, the ship itself is not compromised.

I hope this clears things up.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 5
01-24-2011, 08:47 AM
Eh, I'm alright as it stands. If we moved armour to its own dedicated equipment slot, then all ships would grab some great damage resistance bonus. Whereas now players have to choose whether they get additional damage resistances or improve their hull/shield regeneration, their turning speed, etc.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 6
01-24-2011, 09:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Callasan View Post
First off, remember that with one exception, starships having "armor" is a STO invention. Only Voyager was equipped with "armor * (Ablative Armor) that was nanite-based, thus required a module to monitor and replenish it. And that not until late in the show, too.

Second - THERE IS NO ACTUAL ARMOR ATTACHED TO A STARSHIP - it's done through nanites infesting the hull. Remember, a nanite is a machine that is only slightly larger than a atom - so enough of them could fit BETWEEN the atoms of the hull and increase it's resistance to certain types of damage - which is exactly what the consoles do, as control stations for the nanite network.
This is not accurate at all. Armor, or hull plating in the case of Enterprise, is mentioned on evert Star Trek series, save maybe TOS. In fact, just a quick search on Memory Alpha disputes your claim here.

to the original post, I actually agree. I don't understand why armor is an engineering console. It should be a separate slot, like personal armor is on my ground character.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 7
01-24-2011, 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kobayashi Maru
This is not accurate at all. Armor, or hull plating in the case of Enterprise, is mentioned on evert Star Trek series, save maybe TOS. In fact, just a quick search on Memory Alpha disputes your claim here.

to the original post, I actually agree. I don't understand why armor is an engineering console. It should be a separate slot, like personal armor is on my ground character.
Agreed. It is a vital component to a ship, especially during wartime. Would the klingon faction build any type of ship in their fleet without armor plating? This has always bugged me... but I won't have a heart attack if it never gets changed.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 8
01-24-2011, 10:42 AM
Starship hull layers: According to the Star Trek: The Next Generation Technical Manual, "The exterior shell is composed of interlaced microfoam furanium filaments. These filanents are gamma-welded into a series of contiguous composite segments that are 4.7 cm thick and are typically two meters in width. The substrate segments are electron bonded to three reinforcing layers of 1.2 cm biaxially stressed tritanium fabric, which provide additional torsion strength. In areas immediately adjacent to major structural members, four layers of 2.3 cm fabric are used. The substrate layer is attached to the major structural members by electron-bonded duranium fasteners at 2.5 cm intervals. . . . Thermal insulation and secondary SIF [structural integrity field] conductivity are provided by two 3.76 cm layers of low-density expanded ceramic-polymer composites. These layers are separated by an 8.7 cm multiaxis tritanium truss framework, which provides additional thermal insulation and a pass-through for fixed utility conduits. Radiation attenuation is provided by a 4.2 cm layer of monocrystal beryllium silicate infused with semiferrous polycarbonate whiskers. . . . The outermost hull layer is composed of a 1.6 cm sheet of AGP ablative ceramic fabric chemically bonded onto a substrate of 0.15 cm tritanium foil. . . . Also incorporated into the outermost hull layer is a series of superconducting molybdenum-jacketed waveguide conduits which serve to distribute and disperse the energy of the tactical deflector system.

Also see http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Hull

Also http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Ablative_generator

After its critical role in "Endgame", the armor was not shown or mentioned in any film or series again.
This armor should not be confused with the ablative armor used on Borg spheres, the USS Defiant and USS Prometheus. Concept drawing of Admiral Janeway's shuttle by Rick Sternbach described the future armor as Nanotech Molecular armor plating.

According to Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise (page 14), the deflector shields of the refit-Constitution-class were a similar technology, while only the defense fields protecting the top decks were traditional force fields. The main shield grid was a massive replicator system, projecting an invisible hull layer, moleculary identical to the diburnium-osmium alloy used to build the Kalandan outpost.

And http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Past_Te...art_I_(episode)
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