Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
01-24-2011, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKalamity View Post
That's common sense. I'd like to see you attempt to declaw 3 carriers while you have two bops alpha striking you, 3 carriers shooting you at range, and 50+ photons inbound to your shieldless hull.
In that case the questions would be: What are your other teammates doing? And why were the carriers allowed to generate 50+ fighters?

I understand what you mean, though, even if I have to say that I very rarely see 3 carriers in a single match.
Personally, I actually wouldn't have anything against some sort of "carrier cap", like, a maximum of 1-2 carriers per match just to get rid of these exceptions. This would also serve the idea of carriers being important flagships and not something you'd see every day.

But if all of the above really would be common sense, then I wouldn't see some of those mistakes being made again and again. Starfleet has gotten noticeably better over the past months, but at least for PuG's it still seems to be a fifty-fifty chance of teamplay being non-existent.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
01-24-2011, 02:46 PM
as sci vessel:


team with a defiant...
take the alpha
"sensorscan" the carrier.
defiant buffs (AP:O III, CRF II, THY III, TT1) and decloaks and opens fire
send your torpeds away and threw another TT1 on the defiant (no idea wether they stack).
carrier will be on 15% - 25% hull
second salvo, carrier is belly up

saw it once, and i suppose it might be repeatable.


another thing: after a sensor-scan tractor repulsors on 125 aux and some decent equip do hit with more than 2k hulldamage, taking two blast to take fighters out (you do 30 blasts overall;3x1/s x 10s).
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
01-24-2011, 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
In that case the questions would be: What are your other teammates doing? And why were the carriers allowed to generate 50+ fighters?

I understand what you mean, though, even if I have to say that I very rarely see 3 carriers in a single match.
Personally, I actually wouldn't have anything against some sort of "carrier cap", like, a maximum of 1-2 carriers per match just to get rid of these exceptions. This would also serve the idea of carriers being important flagships and not something you'd see every day.

But if all of the above really would be common sense, then I wouldn't see some of those mistakes being made again and again. Starfleet has gotten noticeably better over the past months, but at least for PuG's it still seems to be a fifty-fifty chance of teamplay being non-existent.
Tbh, i'm fairly certain that I made it into the match after the start of it. That said, when 3 carriers are balled up and healing each other while spewing mobs, most tactics are thrown out the window. Even using my CC abilities i'd be surprised if I put much of a dent in the swarm.

But you are correct, it is rare to see 3 vo'quv's in an arena match. I'm merely saying that multiple carriers in a map are more than likely the source of the upcoming nerfs. Which may very well be overkill. I'm happy that they're simply reducing the spawn sizes, the carrier itself could have been left alone.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
01-24-2011, 04:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKalamity View Post
Tbh, i'm fairly certain that I made it into the match after the start of it. That said, when 3 carriers are balled up and healing each other while spewing mobs, most tactics are thrown out the window. Even using my CC abilities i'd be surprised if I put much of a dent in the swarm.
Well, they cannot really heal the swarm, only themselves - and 3 carriers means few "normal" ships to do "normal" damage.

From what it sounds like, your teammates already allowed the situation to get out of control prior to your arrival, so the most difficult thing would have been to knock back the swarm to a level where you would be able to switch from defense to offense. Gravity Well and Tyken's Rift are excellent skills to take care of whole clouds of pets, and you can finish off the rest with a few B:FaW or RF Cannon salvos (easier said than done, but you get the idea). I've also heard that Viral Matrix does nasty stuff to carriers, but have not personally seen that in action yet (or likely just missed it as I was "occupied" with other targets).

Of course it's always easier to do a tactical post-battle analysis than having to decide whilst actually being there in the heat of the fight... I'm still making many mistakes just because I got distracted or even panic due to several enemy ships suddenly focus-firing my squishy Escort.

Also, it cannot be denied that anti-carrier tactics take a certain set of powers that may not be as useful when dealing with capital (read: player) ships. When fighting a carrier, however, they're golden - and I intend my Fed Tactical to fully concentrate on such a support role.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKalamity View Post
I'm merely saying that multiple carriers in a map are more than likely the source of the upcoming nerfs. Which may very well be overkill. I'm happy that they're simply reducing the spawn sizes, the carrier itself could have been left alone.
I'm a bit saddened by the spawn size reduction, more due to style than efficiency. What use is a carrier when you can't churn out swarms of fighters? I'd have rather let them nerf the pets themselves - but then you'd probably have the issue that Feds would ignore them and focus on the carrier, which caused the devs to buff pets in the first place. It's a tricky circle.

Either way, it is also a bad sign that the devs give in to the whining (I realize this thread isn't like this, but many many others were) when they have previously stated it's balanced and people should adjust their tactics. It may well be that this was caused by the multiple carriers on a single map as you said, but in that case I would have rather preferred a join limit for them. This way, when there is just one carrier, isn't it underpowered now if it was previously balanced?
We'll have to wait and see, I guess.

That said, I also think part of the issue is targeting. Lots of players complain about not being able to select what they want to fire on, and I can even see this on K-side when two Feds are spawning Photonic Fleets and my screen suddenly fills with capital ships (though this kind of irritation may be intended - but in that case the holograms shouldn't do damage ).

I kind of wish they'd include a targeting priority selection, like:
- default targeting, no prioritization
- only target players (if no player is within 15km, target nearest NPC) <- lots of players seem to wish for this
- only target NPCs (if no NPC is within 15km, target nearest player) <- useful for Escorts on anti-carrier duty
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
I would like to point out to the uninitiated that the 2 Carriers are completely different ships, with different strengths & weaknesses. Almost all the Carrier threads are talking about tactics against or how powerful the Voq is.The Kar-fi is completely different.
The Kar-Fi can do WAY more damage with it's weapons than with it's pets. It also has about the same hull as a Raptor, so It is actually a squishy ship. They do have powerful shields, but cannot tank like a cruiser or a Voq. It has decent Science abilities, with a Cmdr & an Ens sci BO. It has only 1 Engineer BO, a Lt.
The Kar-Fi turns like a cruiser, & has a Lt Cmdr & a LT Tac BO, so it can hit a lot harder than a cruiser. A Kar-Fi is more likely to try to kill you itself, not rely on its pets.
I often forget to launch any at all once combat has started.
Also The Frigates carried by The Kar-Fi really don't do much damage, but they can annoy you.
The frigates are armed with anti proton turrets, chronotron torpedoes, and tricobalt mines.The mines are dropped randomly, and are mostly wasted.
Mostly.
The frigate also uses Aceton field. Only 3 frigates can be deployed at once.
I don't use them so all i know about the fighters is that they will do a suicide attack against you when they get close to death, doing about the damage of a photon torpedo. With only 1 hanger bay, A Kar-Fi cannot launch both types of pets at once.
AOE attacks like GW & TR will affect a Kar-Fi just like it would a cruiser, as it doesn't have the inertia that a Voq has . Tractor beams/repulsors will also work against a Kar-fi.
So the 2 ships are both classified as carriers because they both have hangers, but other than that they have nothing in common at all.
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 16
01-24-2011, 10:01 PM
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~Stormshade
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
01-24-2011, 11:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valias
That said, I also think part of the issue is targeting. Lots of players complain about not being able to select what they want to fire on, and I can even see this on K-side when two Feds are spawning Photonic Fleets and my screen suddenly fills with capital ships (though this kind of irritation may be intended - but in that case the holograms shouldn't do damage ).
Photonic Fleet is an unusual effect - one would expect it's some kind of decoy/trickery/confusion skill, but it's seems partially designed as a damage skill.

Either way - Photonic Fleet is not a Federation only skill. Combine Photonic Fleet with Carriers, and things get really busy.

Quote:
I kind of wish they'd include a targeting priority selection, like:
- default targeting, no prioritization
- only target players (if no player is within 15km, target nearest NPC) <- lots of players seem to wish for this
- only target NPCs (if no NPC is within 15km, target nearest player) <- useful for Escorts on anti-carrier duty
Yes, please.

I also would wish that Carriers would get better controls over their pet. Maybe give each Hangar Bay a button for "Attack/Defend" (defend is for healing drones) and a button for "Retreat". Then it might even be feasible to reduce the numbers of pets out there, since they can be used far more effective. Of course, that's not Anti-Carrier tactic.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
01-24-2011, 11:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KhansWrath
This post has been edited to remove content which violates the Cryptic Studios Forum Usage Guidelines ~Stormshade

Did I not say, " ... [i] ask that we not have that discussion here." If you want to discuss the moaning/crying/*****ing/complaining FROM BOTH SIDES go here: Upcoming space combat tweaks headed for Tribble otherwise ZIP IT. This is for a discussion about learning to deal with the carrier threat.
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