Lt. Commander
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# 1 T4 & T5 BoP vs Defiant
01-25-2011, 03:24 PM
I wanted to see side by side what the pro's and con's are to the Klingon and Federation T4 & T5
Escort ships currently. [EDIT: I classify the BoP as an Escort, simply because in this game and PvP for certain there is no real use for a "patrol" or "scout" ship and in my experiences, every BoP in PvP behaves very much like a capable Escort. From here on, I will refer to the BoP as an Escort] I logged into my Klingon character to see what the description states for their T4 and T5 Escort (BoP) ships and then did the same for the Federation ships.

If there are details for each ship beyond these descriptions, I'll be happy to read them as well
since I am trying to better understand these ships as I prefer the escort class myself and when
in PvP, my opponent is usually another Escort player.

This picture illustrates the basic differences and from what I can see, there is a heavy advantage
on the Klingon side without a real beneficial offset on the Federation side. This makes things seem, out of balance to me while Klingon players feel this is a balanced system.

Just to highlight the differences:

T5
Klingon Advantages: [EDIT: I am only listing the positive differences over the federation Defiant, I saw no need in stating areas where the two vessels are identical, the same was done below for the Fed ship]
50 Additional Crew Members

2 Lieutenant Universal Stations
1 Lt Commander Universal Station
1 Commander Universal Station

1 Additional Engineering Console
1 Additional Science Console

4 Additional degrees to the Base Turn Rate

Canon Cloak

T5
Federation Advantages:
1 Additional Aft Weapon

1 Additional Ensign (Tactical) Station

1 Additional Tactical Console

6k Additional Base Hull Strength points

As you can see, the only usable advantage for the Defiant R would be hull strength and the additional
aft weapon which given the BOP's higher turn rate can be important. However, having all universal slots
means you can add plenty of hull regen and shield regen bridge officer skills to offset the lower hull setting
so I certainly wouldn't call the BOP's hull "squishy" when it can keep being regenerated.

The canon cloak has advantages that I need not even mention.

The higher crew count is an unknown at this point being that cryptic has stated it impacts things such
as repair times but I don't know of any way to quantify this into usable data.

You can review the T4 from the image but again, the Klingon ship has a significant advantage.

So, how is this balanced again?

T5 and T4 Escorts
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 2
01-25-2011, 03:30 PM
You might do well to instead compare the Raptor class which more closely compares to Federation escorts. BoPs are their own line of ships more difficult to directly compare to others (like the Carrier)

T4: http://www.stowiki.org/Pach_Raptor
T5: http://www.stowiki.org/Qin_Heavy_Raptor

EDIT: just to clarify, perhaps you should alter the post's title as you are not directly comparing escorts. Perhaps this should also be made in the PvP board rather than general discussion.

EDITx2: Also, if you are comparing the Defiant-R to the BoP, perhaps you want to compare it to their BoP-Refit instead?
http://www.stowiki.org/B%27rel_Bird-of-Prey_Retrofit
Lt. Commander
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# 3
01-25-2011, 03:42 PM
As FizixMan pointed out, you're comparing the BoP's at T4 and T5 to the Fed Escorts of the same tier. BoP's are not excorts. The Raptors are the Klingon escorts. Considering this, your cries of "unbalanced!" are a little off to begin with.
Understand this: the Klingons don't have Science ships. The closest they have is the Varanus supporter. And that's a single T5 ship. The BoP's are meant to be customized to the umpteenth degree, so they technically *can* serve as Sci Ships, but not as dedicated as the actual Fed Sci ship is.
The Klingons are supposed to have more heavy firepower than the Feds, you know. They are a race of warriors. That's why instead of regular ol' cruisers, they have Battlecruisers; and instead of Science vessels, they have Birds of Prey.
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# 4
01-25-2011, 03:47 PM
As mentioned, BoP to Escort comparison is comparing Apples and Oranges
Not to say it can't be done, but it must be understood that you're comparing two different things like comparing cruiser to sci.

Apples to Apples you need to look at Raptors.

In the vein of BoP/Escort comparison, I don't see BoPs as over-advantaged except in the area of Alpha Strike, and then only against escorts or other BoPs because we sometimes literally can't even compensate in time.

Get one into a drawn out firefight however and its decidedly not OP compared to an Escort (as far as my experience goes), I can usually pop one in a matter of seconds if he isn't properly supported.
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# 5
01-25-2011, 03:50 PM
Regarding BoPs being over-advantaged with alpha strikes, I seem to recall the devs saying they were not satisfied with how alpha strikes with some ships can just "pop" or "one-shot" opponents. I'm not sure what came of that (if they already implemented changes, it's still on their plate, or fallen off the radar) but just throwing that out there.
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# 6
01-25-2011, 03:52 PM
I logged in as a Klingon, went to their "hangar bay" and looked up T5 ships.
The Klingon ship Hegh'ta Heavy BOP I listed is the T5 as taken from the Klingon T5 database.

If they have a Retrofit not listed in that database, I wouldn't have known to include it.

As for the BOP being a Science ship? uh, I can't really speak to that as that makes about as much
sense to me as the O'Berth being a warship. I can tell you from having been on the "business" end
of the Hegh'ta Heavy BOP, it is more than capable as an Escort.
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# 7
01-25-2011, 03:57 PM
I did notice in my search through the Klingon ship database that the BOP is listed from T1 through T5.
In fact, as I recall, it is the only ship in the T1 tier which does not support the claim is it a Science ship
as that would contradict earlier statements that the Klingons are a warrior race. Such a warrior race would not use Science ships when starting their military career.

Given it has all universal slots, it simply cannot be quantified into a single category as each captain will outfit it differently. I compared it to the Federation Escort class because in my experience, that is how those ships are being captained.
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# 8
01-25-2011, 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSteel
As for the BOP being a Science ship? uh, I can't really speak to that as that makes about as much
sense to me as the O'Berth being a warship. I can tell you from having been on the "business" end
of the Hegh'ta Heavy BOP, it is more than capable as an Escort.
BoPs are weird because you can't think of them as sci ships cruisers escort etc....

They are BoPs, either science BoPs, survival BoPs, tactical BoPs, or whatever-else-have-you.
A Tactically oriented BoP and an Escort have similarities in play style and effect but differing strategies indeed.

BoPs have to run and hide considerably more than Escorts without a great deal of support because they are much squishier.

They may be able to dish out more DPS in some modes, but they can only achieve that kind of super damage configuration if they sacrifice most of their survival tools, thus making them very weak defensively.

At least, thats my understanding of it from the one tier I flew a BoP at and that countless times I've faced them in battle as a Fed.
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# 9
01-25-2011, 04:03 PM
AZSteel, did you completely miss the Qin Heavy Raptor? That thing is a monstrosity. It's not a "retrofit", it's the original T5 Escort for Klignons. It's designated as a Heavy Escort on the Skills window for Klingon characters.
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Posts: 120
# 10
01-25-2011, 04:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GT01 View Post
AZSteel, did you completely miss the Qin Heavy Raptor? That thing is a monstrosity. It's not a "retrofit", it's the original T5 Escort for Klignons. It's designated as a Heavy Escort on the Skills window for Klingon characters.
I saw it and thanks for pointing it out....because that ship has several advantages over the
Defiant R BUT to be fair, I'd need to compare it to the other Federation Escorts. I was using just the
Defiant R because it has the cloak, whic the BOP and Qin Heavy Raptor both have.

EDIT:

I found this in a link from the main page, this must be the retrofit, not sure why but I did not see this ship listed in the T5 database:

"Birds-of-Prey are the workhorses of the Empire, filling roles as scout ships, raiders or combat vessels. This retrofit of the famed B'rel Bird-of-Prey combines the small size and maneuverability of the B'rel with the most advanced weaponry available to the Empire. The B'rel Bird-of-Prey Retrofit has six weapon slots (4 fore, 2 aft), seats for four Bridge Officers (2 Lieutenant Universal, 1 Lieutenant Commander read moreUniversal and 1 Commander Universal) and space for eight console modifications (3 Tactical, 3 Engineering, 2 Science). It carries 30 crew and has an Enhanced Battle Cloak that will allow the ship to fire mines and torpedo weapons and use most Bridge Officer and Captain abilities while cloaked."
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