Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 11
01-25-2011, 04:15 PM
Yeah, that's the infamous Bird of Prey from, what was it, Undiscovered Country? Anyways, that thing just recently came out. And it is a refit of the very early game B'Rel BoP. And you actually de-cloak for just the tiniest of moments when you use one of those abilities or fire torpeados or mines, but your cloak still stays "On", so to speak.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 12
01-25-2011, 04:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GT01 View Post
Yeah, that's the infamous Bird of Prey from, what was it, Undiscovered Country? Anyways, that thing just recently came out. And it is a refit of the very early game B'Rel BoP. And you actually de-cloak for just the tiniest of moments when you use one of those abilities or fire torpeados or mines, but your cloak still stays "On", so to speak.
Having "fire mines and torpedo weapons and use most Bridge Officer and Captain abilities while cloaked"
is a nice bonus but I'll wait to see how they do it before I form an opinion. I haven't seen one in PvP yet but I'm sure I will soon enough.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 13
01-25-2011, 05:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZSteel
Defiant R BUT to be fair, I'd need to compare it to the other Federation Escorts.
Do you mean to be fair you'd have to go back and add comparisons to the other fed escorts in addition to the Defiant-R, or that it's not fair to compare the Raptor vs Defiant-R?
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 14
01-25-2011, 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FizixMan View Post
Do you mean to be fair you'd have to go back and add comparisons to the other fed escorts in addition to the Defiant-R, or that it's not fair to compare the Raptor vs Defiant-R?
To compare the cyrptic designated "Escort" to "Escort" in addition to comparing the Bird of Prey to the Escort, notibly, the Defiant R.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 15
01-25-2011, 05:40 PM
Birds of Prey are technically Scout ships, not Escorts. Raptors are Escorts.

Lt. Commander
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Posts: 120
# 16
01-25-2011, 06:12 PM
I suppose comparing an escort to the BoP would be kind of like comparing a Fighter vs Paladin in other games. Similar on the surface, but you can't just compare stat vs stat, or simply claim a particular feature or power is unbalancing without some real, hard evidence and numbers to back it up. Of course, it's unfair to ask players to provide statistical analysis or "hard evidence and numbers", but if they can't provide a reasonable hypothesis with some decent reason, logic, and experimentation behind it, it's pretty hard to take the claim seriously. It's also easy to ignore other influencing factors like how the two fit into different roles as part of a team, or how they operate with many targets, how efficient they operate en masse or alone. Additionally, how much a player's skill can influence the ship's effectiveness can easily create a significant bias when anecdotally observing them in game.

Of course, we can ignore these various concerns if want this place to resemble the WoW forums.

All in all, I think this thread would be better served in the PvP Gameplay boards where like-minded individuals can bring to the table more experienced opinions and comparisons. Or at the very least, likely have a wider depth of knowledge regarding the ins-and-outs of flying with/against these ship classes.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 17
01-25-2011, 06:20 PM
Making the Lt Commander slot on the Defiant-R a Universal Slot would be a nice way to balance things out.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 18
01-25-2011, 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by FizixMan View Post
I suppose comparing an escort to the BoP would be kind of like comparing a Fighter vs Paladin in other games. Similar on the surface, but you can't just compare stat vs stat, or simply claim a particular feature or power is unbalancing without some real, hard evidence and numbers to back it up. Of course, it's unfair to ask players to provide statistical analysis or "hard evidence and numbers", but if they can't provide a reasonable hypothesis with some decent reason, logic, and experimentation behind it, it's pretty hard to take the claim seriously. It's also easy to ignore other influencing factors like how the two fit into different roles as part of a team, or how they operate with many targets, how efficient they operate en masse or alone. Additionally, how much a player's skill can influence the ship's effectiveness can easily create a significant bias when anecdotally observing them in game.

Of course, we can ignore these various concerns if want this place to resemble the WoW forums.

All in all, I think this thread would be better served in the PvP Gameplay boards where like-minded individuals can bring to the table more experienced opinions and comparisons. Or at the very least, likely have a wider depth of knowledge regarding the ins-and-outs of flying with/against these ship classes.
The Bird of Prey, much like its Bridge Officer slot, is universal. Unlike a "Fighter or Paladin " which are often locked into a specific genre (as in Diablo which is the only game I have played with characters like either).
That said, my experience with BOP Captains leads me to believe they are mostly flown by Engineer or Tactical Captains and not Science. My toon is an Engineer but with help from a Science buddy, I have my science Bridge Officers trained in some very nice skills, there is nothing stopping the Klingons from doing this same thing. As for other metrics that alter a ships stats, they are universal and apply to every player so why would they be factored in?

Only cryptic has the cold hard numbers so all I am left with is speculation but a lack of granular data does not negate the reality of PvP. Roughly 70% of PvP matches I am in has an average of 50% BOP Captains
and in those matches, the Klingons have a kill ratio of 5x and higher. The remaining 30% have had a higher percentage of Carrier Captains and the Klingon kill ratio is lower, to the tune of 3x.

The way I am seeing things, Klingons in PvP seem to favour the Bird of Prey or the Carrier and based
on those two ships, I can understand why one of them is so heavily favoured. The BOP can both tank and be effective as an offensive ship. In the Defiant R, I can do one but not both. This is where I see a lack of balance. Before you suggest it, I have already taken many pointers from players that are well versed in PvP, many of which are Klingon players and I have gone from being killed 6 and 7 times per match to just one or two and sometimes, not at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrooklynKnight View Post
Making the Lt Commander slot on the Defiant-R a Universal Slot would be a nice way to balance things out.
That and the canon cloak and I would say the ships are about right. The Defiant R would still be half the ship it was in the series and the Bird of Prey is 4x what it ever was but, the game needs balance so I would yield.

Some people think its an amusing subject but really, take a cold hard look at the ship stats and you will see, unless your biased, that Klingon ships, while not fully canon, are significantly closer to their on screen counterparts, while Federation ships are not. The Defiant R is probably the closest of all the Federation ships in this game. Considering Star Trek was centered on the Federation and even cryptic has conceded this game is primarily based on the Federation, then why is it the Klingons are being granted ships that are a more accurate representation of the screen version?

As an example, the canon cloak. No one can deny that every cloak depicted in Star Trek operated this way, save being damaged. The BoP that fires torps while cloaked, and as an added measure, can use all Bridge Officer and captain skills while cloaked. The Negh 'Var Heavy Battle Cruiser seems pretty close as well, even has a cloak, although it isn't a canon cloak.

Well, I digress, I will go look at the other Fed Escorts and the designated Klingon Escort and see how it compares to the Fed Escorts.
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 19
01-25-2011, 07:11 PM
The Qin Heavy Raptor has the following advantages or disadvantages when compared to Federation Escorts.

Qin Heavy Raptor vs Advanced Escort (Prometheus)

Ensign Tactical vs Ensign Science

33,300 hull points vs 30,000

3 Engineering and 2 Science Consoles vs 2 Engineering and 3 Science

200 crew vs 150 crew

Cloak vs no cloak

Qin Heavy Raptor vs Fleet Escort (Hermes)

Ensign Tactical vs Ensign Engineer

33,300 hull points vs 30,000

Cloak vs no cloak

EDIT:

Qin Heavy Raptor vs Tactical Escort Retrofit (Defiant)

200 crew vs 50 crew

3 Engineering consoles vs 2 Engineering consoles

Base Turn Rate 15 vs Base Turn Rate 17

33,300 hull points vs 30,000
Lt. Commander
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 120
# 20
01-25-2011, 07:39 PM
Your points of contention seem a little arbitrary: You're only comparing their extra ensign slots, hull values, crew count, and whether they have a cloak or not? And then, with just the Defiant Refit, the turn speed?
And you're also bringing up how close they are to their canon depictions? What does that even matter?
So far, your thread, from the start, has made very little sense; you even overlooked the fact that Klingons actually have a T5 escort.
I'm not even sure what the logic behind your last post was, AZSteel.
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